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A discussion of what is "portable" - Page 3

post #31 of 52
Thread Starter 
^ Mmmmmm optical iPod DAC out. Sounds delicious. Too bad RWA won't iMod the newest Classics.
Kinda afeared now, after trying a ZVMod and ending up with FUBAR. Won't try to mod this much myself...
post #32 of 52
not optical from ipod, optical from iriver; it already has optical, one of the few
post #33 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
i'm still yet to hear a DAP that even comes close or I would reduce the size. plus i'll admit I LOOOVE tweaking stuff and being able to tune to taste (even day by day with mood); something that just isnt possible with a simple dap. only thing that might win out is a little known project, the XMOD, which takes a cowon X5L (already purchased) and adds a daughterboard with 2 x PCM1794A in parallel (higher Ti chip than the hifimans dac) replace HD with CF card for room for more battery cells and adds a new output stage with BUF634 and whatever Opamp you like since there is +/-9V (18V) to play with. all in the size of the X5L, which aint large; but these are very illusive and by the time I had got the cowon the boards had sold out so i'm waiting for the next run.
in the meantime i'm playing with my own ideas..... balanced has its appeal
Hi everybody!
Nowaday the project you mentioned changed their name into the "aleXmod", because "x-mod" sounds similar with the one of creative soundcards...
1.After X-mas hollidays I'll plan to made a second version of printed circuit boards.
An improved (high grade) version will be available. It will based on flagship PCM1794, LM6172im OAs as I\U converters, THS6012 as output HP buffers.
DC\DC voltages for OAs will be raised up to +\-8v, and +5V analogue & +3.3v digital will be generated from them by additional voltage regulators.
Of cause all passive components will be the best -SMD NPO Caps & 1% resistors as well, Black Gates NX-HQ in REF pins, Black Gates Pk in analogue, Sanyo Os-Cons in digital path...
Now i start the project's web pages - ПерÑональный Ñайт - Ð“Ð»Ð°Ð²Ð½Ð°Ñ Ñтраница
With god's help I think this page will be usefull for everyone interested...
I plan to translate all materials in english from time to time - just stay tuned!
post #34 of 52
aha, well YGPM then yippee!!
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
gotta love the people that cant just say ok for you portable, but not for me, instead have to add something about seeing the light and not deluding themselves any longer

I dare anyone to compare an ipod dac + HP out to optical out to portable dac (with modified power supply) + 18V bipolar supply (+/-9V) + 10000UF + with fullsize transistor based reg, reasonably high current for pretty much ANY chip you might like to run portable or at home in class A (can and have even run burson discrete opamps at home), local bypassing of chip supplies, 4 channel amp with choice of 3 channel if you prefer, no caps in the signal path, all in a portable amp with discrete diamond buffer output stage (DIY) + x2 buf634 stacked. up to 1.4W into 8 ohms. now tell me the difference is marginal. sorry but that is just ludicrous. if you think that then most of the topics in this entire place about getting the best out of your rig either at home or portable are of no use to you.

a difference not worth it to you to carry around...fine....but NOT a small difference
The detailed technical difference is undoubtedly not marginal.


The practical difference of the output from the presentation front-end (i.e. the earphones) within the constraints of a portable system and it's mode / environment of use? Something oft overlooked by those who can't see the wood for the trees due to the level of immersion they have in the hobby IMO.


I'll be very confident submitting a high-end IEM + iPod and if required, a passive attenuator vs an amped setup along your lines (which doesn't inject a tonal difference to skew the results) and to have both compared in a blind test in an external environment. Especially as I've done it myself.


I don't see the point in extraneous kit if there is no benefit to having it: And in this case, part of that weeding-out process is to dispassionately evaluate the real practical merits of the output of DAC+Amp systems actually in a portable environment.


If you're aiming for a *transportable* audiophile system, the priorities are different and efforts such as my current 'portable' amp or your setup would be justified... but in that case you would not be using an IEM, even high-end systems, due to the compromises involved which, simply put, piss away a significant degree of the improvement effort invested into the DAC and amplification stages.
post #36 of 52
well I guess that depends on what your mode of portability is, but I think you missed the main point. the main point is not so much the insanely different spec amp, but the dac, which is the reason I left amping ipods and modified ipods long ago and the reason i'm very interested in the project mentioned above, which turns a X5L into a superior unit to the hifiman HM801. HD600 out of ipod = crap, even JH13 out of ipod (or in my case iphone 3G) is quite good and I use it regularly (probably sounds about the same as your rig if you use the latest ipod), but still not as good as the rig I posted. multidriver IEMs of low impedance are not driven very well at all with underpowered and unsuitable amps, they just arent. loud enough yes absolutely, but not well driven.

but I can see this is pointless, i'll just agree to disagree
post #37 of 52
Oh, I'm sure we can agree to disagree.


But at the end of the day I suspect I'm the only one - among other tests - whose done an honest blind test on himself between the two solutions.
post #38 of 52
I dont believe blind tests are any good either, there will always be some influencing factor no matter how you try. most blind tests involve quick back and forth and rely on memory. but I can say I did it with HD600 and the result was not deserving of a blind test. obvious. are you really saying you cant tell the difference between an ipod dac and the highest end wolfston? just amping iems from the same source (ipod) is more marginal i'll agree and takes time and quiet environment (which my workshop and not a small amount of my portable listening is) but the difference between sources is plain as day I dont need a blind test to hear what is obvious.

but if you are saying that; well good for you; you can leave now and be happy for the rest of your natural life. upgrades are useless very happy for your wallet though

edit: blind test + portable??? sounds dangerous if you are saying you cant tell the difference in source while at home then that rules out any upgrades to your home gear as well...bonus
post #39 of 52
To me "portable" equal pocket size. Aka small enough to fit in a normal size jeans pocket.
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
edit: blind test + portable??? sounds dangerous
There are things called 'large bags' you can put two systems into and have an audio switch poking out, amazingly. I'm just as big an obssesive nerd as most people here: However my obsessive nerding also extends to the validity of the experience.
post #41 of 52
Portable just means something that can be transported. Whether that means you need a big bag, or a car, is irrelevant. In the context of personal entertainment, most of the time it means you could bring it with you on vacation if you wanted. IE: Portable that is reasonable in relation to the application it is being used for.

However, obviously this forum section isn't primarily, if at all, based on that. It's meant for on-the-go listening. Full sized cans are portable, but they're not really for on-the-go listening. You shouldn't be using them on the bus, or walking around in the street. The first reason being that you're unlikely to be able to hear the subtle differences you detect in your quiet home environment, and the second being that they are too isolating for such a public environment where your safety and the safety of those around you depends on awareness of your surroundings.

Quote:
I dare anyone to compare an ipod dac + HP out to optical out to portable dac (with modified power supply) + 18V bipolar supply (+/-9V) + 10000UF + with fullsize transistor based reg, reasonably high current for pretty much ANY chip you might like to run portable or at home in class A (can and have even run burson discrete opamps at home), local bypassing of chip supplies, 4 channel amp with choice of 3 channel if you prefer, no caps in the signal path, all in a portable amp with discrete diamond buffer output stage (DIY) + x2 buf634 stacked. up to 1.4W into 8 ohms. now tell me the difference is marginal. sorry but that is just ludicrous. if you think that then most of the topics in this entire place about getting the best out of your rig either at home or portable are of no use to you.
I dare you to take the time to do a legitimate abx test (with and without your headphones plugged into all of that) with matched volume and post the results. IE You're not allowed to see what you're listening to, you just have to try and tell which is which by hearing them do their thing.

It's really bad practice to do sighted trials, and even worse to make claims to other people based on them. ABX isn't perfect, of course, but at least it tells you something. All what you've posted tells a reader is that you've spent a lot of money and you personally have decided it sounds better. The reader is left to guess why you think it sounds better, and sadly the most obvious is not because it actually does.
post #42 of 52
It is just ridiculious.
Often, when someone listening and testing the sound device (blind or open eyes test neverthless) he is testing and listening the most descent part of sound chain, but decied and estimate the overall item perfomance. For example, when using ordinary portable with low impedance headphones (read - multidriver IEMs) there is signficient rejection of bass impact, because of DC blocking capacitors at the output...It could degrade perfomance but said nothing about bass abilities of the DAC being used ...
It is not trivial for ordinary users, but a real evident for any qualified audio engineer.
And when there is no money limitations for product, we can do just all right!
(My alexmod's audiopath just have no any blocking capacitors...And the PSU ones is the BEST ones)
post #43 of 52
Qusp, I'm curious where you do your portable listening that's a quiet environment. 95% of my portable listening is in noisy environments such as mass transit or environments that can be potentially dangerous to equipment such as yard work or house maintenance. In a noisy environment, your rig wouldn't be worth it. I've also been doing a lot of house painting recently. It's very quiet, but I wouldn't want anything expensive near me while I'm painting. It's KSC 75s and a totally encased mp3 player or nothing.
post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by bangraman View Post
There are things called 'large bags' you can put two systems into and have an audio switch poking out, amazingly. I'm just as big an obssesive nerd as most people here: However my obsessive nerding also extends to the validity of the experience.
why did I know that you would hav zero sense of humour about that comment jeeze man, loosen the hell up!! I love you crusaders; supposedly 'found the light' and have to try to kill everyone elses joy. what do you get out of this process? this convo is against the rules, so i'm not going to discuss you stupid tests. seriously if you honestly feel like this. you really have no reason to be here and that includes home AND portable. i'm curious ho you choose your headphones? do they have an isolation booth at your shops? do you choose based on graphs? seems pretty lifeless to me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Portable just means something that can be transported. Whether that means you need a big bag, or a car, is irrelevant. In the context of personal entertainment, most of the time it means you could bring it with you on vacation if you wanted. IE: Portable that is reasonable in relation to the application it is being used for.

However, obviously this forum section isn't primarily, if at all, based on that. It's meant for on-the-go listening. Full sized cans are portable, but they're not really for on-the-go listening. You shouldn't be using them on the bus, or walking around in the street. The first reason being that you're unlikely to be able to hear the subtle differences you detect in your quiet home environment, and the second being that they are too isolating for such a public environment where your safety and the safety of those around you depends on awareness of your surroundings.


I dare you to take the time to do a legitimate abx test (with and without your headphones plugged into all of that) with matched volume and post the results. IE You're not allowed to see what you're listening to, you just have to try and tell which is which by hearing them do their thing.

It's really bad practice to do sighted trials, and even worse to make claims to other people based on them. ABX isn't perfect, of course, but at least it tells you something. All what you've posted tells a reader is that you've spent a lot of money and you personally have decided it sounds better. The reader is left to guess why you think it sounds better, and sadly the most obvious is not because it actually does.
not going there, you really oughto just do your own thing mate, sounds like you have lots of rules that other people must follow. shouldnt use headphones in public environment ...jebus man!! in fact fullsize headphones have far less isolation in general

Quote:
Originally Posted by scompton View Post
Qusp, I'm curious where you do your portable listening that's a quiet environment. 95% of my portable listening is in noisy environments such as mass transit or environments that can be potentially dangerous to equipment such as yard work or house maintenance. In a noisy environment, your rig wouldn't be worth it. I've also been doing a lot of house painting recently. It's very quiet, but I wouldn't want anything expensive near me while I'm painting. It's KSC 75s and a totally encased mp3 player or nothing.
I live my life primarily as a kind of shift worker. most of my business is on the other side of the world and therefore in a different time zone. I do most of my listening between 11pm and 4am, the majority of that is downstairs in an under the house workshop with little security, so nothing is set up down there and power plugs are at a premium. my home rig is upstairs and its staying there. I often go for walks to clear my head, grab a coffee or supplies at the 7/11 etc. its pretty quiet....
everyone seems to be avoiding the question, if you cant tell the difference between 2 very different dacs portable (for some reason everyone is focusing on the amp because to people who know nothing of impedance issues its an easier argument when talking low ohm cans) , how do you choose your headphones, your DAP?? totally based on features? how it looks? in that case again you would only need to go to one of any number of other websites that cover the consumer angle, but yet you are here and I can bet the way your dap and headphones sound are at least part of the reason you own it. the rig above can quite easily compete with home rigs of the same value driving any headphone you want, so makes a nice work rig driving the JH13 or HD600 if i'm doing paperwork or something and like I said I carry my bag around with me anyway and i'm not gonna say to myself 'hmmm I think I would be better off not hearing some detail at the moment i'll disconnect my rig so its not such a hassle and reconnect it all again later instead of slinging my bag over my shoulder hitting play on the remote and off I go; which sounds more convenient to you?

and alex raises one of the same points I was making. multidriver low impedance phones are NOT well driven by portable players, there is plenty of science to back this up and yes DBT as well. anythingbutipod did some testing with a scope of sorts as well.

but I suppose you guys will argue the testing conditions or something idiotic like that.

anyway i'm out, not buying into this any longer as I can only see one agenda here. I personally couldnt care less what you guys do in your own time, I suggest you take a similar attitude and go get on with it
post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
why did I know that you would hav zero sense of humour about that comment jeeze man, loosen the hell up!! I love you crusaders; supposedly 'found the light' and have to try to kill everyone elses joy. what do you get out of this process? this convo is against the rules, so i'm not going to discuss you stupid tests. seriously if you honestly feel like this. you really have no reason to be here and that includes home AND portable. i'm curious ho you choose your headphones? do they have an isolation booth at your shops? do you choose based on graphs? seems pretty lifeless to me

It was spun back with added deadpan sarcasm. You have to excuse those of us steeped in life in Engerland. We have enough irony to keep the Bath Iron Works busy for a long time, and sometimes we don't realise that it doesn't come off well in text except among fellow 'do-not-take-themselves-too-seriously' brigade.


I realise all this is a big deal to some and the above doesn't apply. On the other hand, it's only a big deal to me in terms of what I said before: i.e what I can actually derive the practical benefits of in the mode of use, regardless of the resources I've put into buying and building an uber-rig. In order to quantify those benefits, yes I (used to) do a lot of testing... and it's primarily not for the purposes of conjecture on-forum, but for me to actually obtain the best solution for the application. Who knows, I might well be the only owner of a portable (debatable, although not far away from your setup) SET amp with an RK50 out there, but I don't mind subjecting it to a performance / benefit analysis for actually portable use. And if you're going to find something out like that, you might as well do it properly.


Let me draw you a direct and perhaps more understandable parallel: I wouldn't - if I were a soldier - go into urban combat with a howitzer hitched to my arse, especially if all you have are machine-gun rounds for it. You can talk to me about reach and penetration all you like: But the fact is that in the projected mode of use, while it may intimidate some who aren't aware of it's ultimate ineffectiveness, it's actually only going to slow you down.
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