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impact of cable length on sound

post #1 of 18
12/28/09 at 2:57pm
Thread Starter 
For this question, let's agree/assume/pretend/believe/etc. that the materials in a cable make a sonic difference. Does cable length impact this? In particular, how long a length would I need for an IC to hear the "flavor" of a material? I have numerous mini to mini IC's that I have made with different materials ranging from 6" to 10". I was going to continue this trend when my OCC silver, and mundorf 99/1 silver/gold wires get here. If it is possible to hear differences, would I be able to tell at these lengths? I plan on doing a mini to mini showdown with Mogami W2893, Nucleotide OCC copper, Navships SPC, Vampire SPC, OCC silver, Mundorf, and radioshack speaker wire to see if I can hear any differences. My system is a very compact system that sits on my desk so none of my IC's will be more than a foot long. The only things of any length are the USB cable, speaker cables, and headphone cables. I can't afford to buy enough wire of each material to make 5+ feet of speaker or headphone cables, so this is really my only way of testing all this.
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post #2 of 18
12/28/09 at 4:27pm
Materials can make a sonic difference and a cable's length is probably the most important factor. Of course, these differences are completely and utterly imperceptible with commercial audio cables of several feet in length. Or were you looking for a scientific answer about when the magic happens?
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post #3 of 18
12/28/09 at 5:37pm
If you believe that the tiny impedance, capacitance, inductance, skin effect, etc have an audible effect, then the longer the cable the more impedance/etc you have. So yes, a longer cable would be worse if you believe in that kind of thing.

Honestly, as far as length I'd be more concerned about interference and such if it wasn't well shielded. That WILL be an audible effect.
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post #4 of 18
12/28/09 at 5:44pm
Well, a cable with high capacitance (for a cable) might cause attenuation in the 'supertweeter' range.
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post #5 of 18
12/28/09 at 6:15pm
At 1ft lenghts and not run over noisy things like tvs or florescent light bulbs, sound wont change. If anything the ends and if it is shielded matters. Personally id use rg59 or slightly smaller shielded cable wire before id use unshielded speaker/headphone wire. Thats like the weirdos that use cat6 for IC's when everyone that tests them can show all the noise they pickup. But hey the braided wire looks nice.
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post #6 of 18
12/28/09 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
At 1ft lenghts and not run over noisy things like tvs or florescent light bulbs, sound wont change. If anything the ends and if it is shielded matters. Personally id use rg59 or slightly smaller shielded cable wire before id use unshielded speaker/headphone wire. Thats like the weirdos that use cat6 for IC's when everyone that tests them can show all the noise they pickup. But hey the braided wire looks nice.
If we've learned nothing else about cables on head-fi, it's that looks mean almost everything.
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post #7 of 18
12/28/09 at 6:47pm
Thread Starter 
I guess the question was more about the conditions (particularly length) necessary for the metal itself to show whatever flavor it adds (if it does). People have anecdotally described the way certain metals sound compared to others, and I was wondering if there was a certain length where the differentiation would happen. If I am going to hear a difference between copper and silver, will it matter that my cables are less than a foot long?

I guess it doesn't much matter, as this is the system I am rolling with until I am out of school so if I don't hear a difference with the short IC's then it doesn't much matter if there is any difference. Shielding isn't too much of a concern as these will not be run near anything that puts out a whole lot of interference.
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post #8 of 18
12/29/09 at 8:49am
If there's any audible difference between cables, the sound of cables has to be proportional to their length. I wouldn't expect a major difference between cables as short as one foot. I know many people think that cables have a major influence to the sound regardless of it's length, but I don't understand how this could be when impedance, inductance, capacitance etc are proportional to the cable length.
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post #9 of 18
12/29/09 at 10:31am
I've used different interconnects in the 3' range that had clearly "improved" sound. The cables in question were the stock cheapo cable the came with a Sony CD player and a $100 Van Den Hull co-axial interconnect, with the Van Den Hull having the better sound. The changes were audible on some really old speakers. You'll note that I've quoted "improved" - that meant to me more detail and clear. Everything is all relative to your ear.

Geometry will have an effect. However any change will have to be measured in system. Each system has its own issues and the cable works as part of that system.

What I do find amusing is that people believe that Litz braid reduces interference. That's not its job - the braid is used the reduce skin effect.
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post #10 of 18
12/29/09 at 11:44am
Thread Starter 
Well, maybe my whole comparo will be pointless, then, as there is no place for anything over a foot in my system. It makes sense in many ways that there will be no audible difference, but there is a disconnect for me since so many people say there will be a difference and it makes a little sense that different materials would sound different.

I guess my worry was to do this, hear no effect, and then dismiss different materials when it was really my system that prevented me from hearing anything. Guess it won't matter until my system changes, although outside of the headphone cable itself, I don't anticipate any IC to ever be that long.

And as pretty as the litz baid is, especially naked, I have moved to making a starquad now when putting together individual strands (twist the two channels with their grounds, then twist them together).

Thanks everyone.
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post #11 of 18
12/29/09 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FraGGleR View Post
And as pretty as the litz baid is, especially naked, I have moved to making a starquad now when putting together individual strands (twist the two channels with their grounds, then twist them together).
Technically, Litz braiding with stranded wire isn't really a Litz cable... . Real Litz wire is very nice to work with (after you tin the ends *doh!*). I think that Cardas sells litz wire; I've been meaning to give that a try.

EDIT:
Regarding length; inductance and capacitance are much bigger factors than resistance (okay, impedance; resistance for clarity's sake ). If you have a cable with enormous capacitance, you will have trouble driving whatever's on the receiving end of the cable and it may be dangerous to some equipment. Inductance DOES play a major factor with long cables, especially with recording (any sort of mic line is prone to inductance). Major roll offs and signal degradation is typical. Also, long cables are pretty much antenna, which is why XLR (shielding ground) is the way to go with >15 foot lengths.
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post #12 of 18
12/29/09 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jageur272 View Post
Technically, Litz braiding with stranded wire isn't really a Litz cable... . Real Litz wire is very nice to work with (after you tin the ends *doh!*). I think that Cardas sells litz wire; I've been meaning to give that a try.
Don't know that I'd call the Cardas "real" litz, just as I wouldn't call a pair of bridged amplifier channels "real" balanced.

Yeah, a pair of bridged channels have "balanced" input impedances, but the input isn't differential which obviates the primary reason for balanced interfaces, i.e. common-mode rejection.

Similarly, yeah, the Cardas uses individually insulated wires, but they're simply twisted, which obviates the primary reason for litz wire, i.e. skin effect.

As far as skin effect goes, the Cardas offers nothing over regular stranded wire.

For that, not only do you need individually insulated wires, but the wires also have to be arranged in such a way that on average, each wire occupies all positions radially. What that does is tend to keep the current density the same throughout the cross section of the wire, reducing the frequency-dependent resistance due to skin effect.

Quote:
EDIT:
Regarding length; inductance and capacitance are much bigger factors than resistance (okay, impedance; resistance for clarity's sake ). If you have a cable with enormous capacitance, you will have trouble driving whatever's on the receiving end of the cable and it may be dangerous to some equipment. Inductance DOES play a major factor with long cables, especially with recording (any sort of mic line is prone to inductance). Major roll offs and signal degradation is typical.
Generally speaking, whether inductance or capacitance is your primary enemy depends on the load impedance.

If you're driving a high impedance load such as a line level input which are typically 10k ohms and up, capacitance is the most significant factor. If you're driving a low impedance load such as a loudspeaker, inductance is the most significant factor.

Quote:
Also, long cables are pretty much antenna, which is why XLR (shielding ground) is the way to go with >15 foot lengths.
And I still say shielding is overrated.

se
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post #13 of 18
12/29/09 at 4:03pm
The skin effect doesn't really kick in at audio frequencies.

It's a big deal for RF, to the extent that some high frequency RF designs use hollow tubes rather than solid conductors.

But at audio frequencies it's more of a theoretical issue.
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post #14 of 18
12/29/09 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericj View Post
The skin effect doesn't really kick in at audio frequencies.

It's a big deal for RF, to the extent that some high frequency RF designs use hollow tubes rather than solid conductors.

But at audio frequencies it's more of a theoretical issue.
Can't say I disagree, though for whatever reason a good litz sounds better to me than plain stranded.

I was just pointing out that from a purely technical perspective, there's really no particular reason to insulate individual strands except to address skin effect.

se
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post #15 of 18
12/30/09 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
Don't know that I'd call the Cardas "real" litz, just as I wouldn't call a pair of bridged amplifier channels "real" balanced.

Yeah, a pair of bridged channels have "balanced" input impedances, but the input isn't differential which obviates the primary reason for balanced interfaces, i.e. common-mode rejection.

Similarly, yeah, the Cardas uses individually insulated wires, but they're simply twisted, which obviates the primary reason for litz wire, i.e. skin effect.

As far as skin effect goes, the Cardas offers nothing over regular stranded wire.

For that, not only do you need individually insulated wires, but the wires also have to be arranged in such a way that on average, each wire occupies all positions radially. What that does is tend to keep the current density the same throughout the cross section of the wire, reducing the frequency-dependent resistance due to skin effect.
Alrighty, good thing I didn't buy any of that Cardas wire. I'm currently using some 100/45 wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
And I still say shielding is overrated.
At first, it baffled me as to why someone with your know how (which I greatly admire and have learned a lot from btw; thanks!) constantly would argue that shielding is pointless, but then I realized that you were referring to this hobby and as far as audiophile hi-fi is concerned, it is extremely hyped (99.98% coverage!). From now on, my cables will only be made of braided aluminum shielding, tin foil, and plastic wrap (not necessarily in that order ).
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