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The Loudness War - your experiences - Page 2

post #16 of 138
12/15/09 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenixdown110 View Post
If it's too loud, you can just replay gain it.

But that doesnt remove the clipping, it just makes the volume to be stable between songs.
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post #17 of 138
12/15/09 at 7:58pm
Replay Gain - Player Requirements - Clipping Prevention

This next one is from Wikipedia and might not be credible, but "With lossy files, another benefit of Replay Gain is that the peak information can also be used to prevent loud songs from clipping.[2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replay_Gain

It generally prevents loud music from clipping. However, it can sometimes act as a double edged sword and induce clipping of it's own, where you would just remove the replay gain. Clipping means that the volume of the audiodata exceeds its max value. Since this is not possible, it is cut off or flattened. When using replay gain, then it is the modifier value which introduces clipping while decoding it only clips when the modifier is applied while decoding. The audiodata itself does not clip.
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post #18 of 138
12/15/09 at 10:04pm
What software are you using to get the waveform? Can it be used with any computer and song?
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post #19 of 138
12/15/09 at 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenixdown110 View Post
Replay Gain - Player Requirements - Clipping Prevention

This next one is from Wikipedia and might not be credible, but "With lossy files, another benefit of Replay Gain is that the peak information can also be used to prevent loud songs from clipping.[2]"
Replay Gain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It generally prevents loud music from clipping. However, it can sometimes act as a double edged sword and induce clipping of it's own, where you would just remove the replay gain. Clipping means that the volume of the audiodata exceeds its max value. Since this is not possible, it is cut off or flattened. When using replay gain, then it is the modifier value which introduces clipping while decoding it only clips when the modifier is applied while decoding. The audiodata itself does not clip.
So it sounds like it can be of some help if the clipping is induced by lossy compression, but it's not going to do much for you if the original recording is clipped, which is the case for a lot of modern CDs.
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post #20 of 138
12/15/09 at 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazerboy2000 View Post
What software are you using to get the waveform? Can it be used with any computer and song?
Looks like audacity: Audacity: Free Audio Editor and Recorder
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post #21 of 138
12/15/09 at 10:20pm
I have pretty much exactly one album that really has a peak to average ratio high enough to introduce clipping when ReplayGain is used (Vangelis: Opera Sauvage, album gain +4.69 dB but peak @-1.20dBFS). Otherwise album gains of 0..-3 dB are typical for old productions.

My point with ReplayGain is the following: If it's commonly used, volume on loud albums will be brought down during playback anyway, and that in turn makes overly hot mastering redundant, leaving only the negative effects (the clipping) without any gains. In such a scenario it seems much smarter to leave the kind of headroom that is needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rederanged View Post
So it sounds like it can be of some help if the clipping is induced by lossy compression, but it's not going to do much for you if the original recording is clipped, which is the case for a lot of modern CDs.
Yep. Actually the peak value in an MP3 of a certain VBR quality level when compared to the same in the original track can serve as an indicator of how heavy the brickwalling was. One track in the aforementioned Cocteau Twins album has a ratio of about 1.35 at -V 4 -q 0, while a more moderately brickwalled album might have like 1.15...1.25 (it doesn't say anything about clipping already introduced during recording though). Very echo-y '80s albums tend to be a bit under 1.
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post #22 of 138
12/15/09 at 10:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
What, no mention of Metallica - Death Magnetic yet? That has to be the recent poster child for the loudness war.

Greg Fidelman didn't stop there, his production job on Slayer - World Painted Blood was almost as bad. The drums were lifted high in the mix but sounded very muffled.
I agree with both Metallica and Slayer. DM is almost to the point of being unlistenable, it's that bad. It's amazing how much better the Guitar Hero rip version sounds in comparison to the cd release. Slayer is pretty bad, too, but just not quite as bad. Also, Nonpoint - Vengeance is pretty bad. I don't know if it's just terrible mastering of the audio or loudness war at work, but either way, it's hard to listen to.
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post #23 of 138
12/15/09 at 11:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9pintube View Post
...
They are just Mastering the finale mix with excessive DB boost in many records. They said, Quote, "The majority of people will really think it sounds like it's been mixed BETTER", if it's LOUDER......
I don't understand how a recording artist and studio can put out some of this stuff... don't they listen to it? I often wonder if we hear musical recordings better than the people who made them in the first place.

On the other hand perhaps they do hear the clipping, distortion issues but the likes of MP3 players need the volume boost?
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post #24 of 138
12/16/09 at 1:38am
Here is "Every Breath You Take" from my 15+ year old copy of Syncronicity. The difference from the new remaster posted above is not subtle. Looking at it, I don't think the old version has a lot more dynamic range, but is just quieter overall. (Replay gain is +2.37.)

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post #25 of 138
12/16/09 at 2:29am
I don't have any waveforms, but the SACD version of Synchronicity sounds about right.

The Loudness War has mostly turned me off of new releases. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky, but I've been retreating into a world of SACD, DVD-A and vinyl. They're not brickwalled, have excellent sonics and I've bought more music than I can listen to. I might be missing the latest but my ears are happy.
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post #26 of 138
12/16/09 at 4:36am
I have the remastered edition of the first Clash album (US version) and when I try to play Clash City Rockets the beginning when the guitars kick in it hurts my ears. Even if lowering the amp my ears still hurts.

I just replay gain it and it solves that problem. Now I'm able to listen to the tracks on high volumes without hurting my ears.

But I still say one thing: I'm glad that the remasters that I own (some AC/DC, Clash, etc.) just have high floors. I don't hear chipping on any of my albums which I can say thank goodness.





But....that ABBA Gold remaster from last year was crap.
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post #27 of 138
12/16/09 at 6:41am
Thread Starter 
From what you guys posted and a little bit of research, I'd say my CD of Synchronicity is louder but still retains most of the dynamic range. I've listened to Metallica's Death Magnetic and it sounds more like static than music...

Just go ahead and listen.....

+ YouTube Video
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post #28 of 138
12/16/09 at 10:07am


ZZ Top - Mescalero
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post #29 of 138
12/17/09 at 3:34pm


Muse - Map of the Problematique . Great song, terrible mastering.
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post #30 of 138
12/17/09 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adreneline View Post


Muse - Map of the Problematique . Great song, terrible mastering.
Wow, that is horrid. British rock bands have some of the worst mastering. That Arctic Monkeys album Favourite Worst Nightmare seems like it would have been pretty good if the music were audible under the distortion.
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