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Sennheiser HD 800 - price control? - Page 8

post #106 of 147
12/16/09 at 4:15pm
I think there is confusion between NPD and R&D.

Anyways, I look forward to reading the peer reviewed research papers sennheiser has produced detailing their research during development of the hd-800. Until those papers surface I have nothing of value to add.
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post #107 of 147
12/16/09 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
So that also includes your post, right?
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Spitz View Post
I could not disagree more decisively. Believe me as a [insert resume-grade-padded qualification here], I am fully capable of asserting a comprehensive and definitive opinion on the matter. This thread is the culmination of experts in one field--that of headphones--attempting to generate trite uninformed bombast from what, in many cases, appears to be their [See Webster-Roget thesaurus for a suitable synonym for 'rectum' to use here]. It is a certifiable [insert expletive noun of choice here (OPTIONAL: Creative adjective modifier. Try 'tap-dancing' or 'capricious'!)] of product envy and pseudo-anonymous "expertise". In short, the entire thread is, on the whole, grossly-overstated pompous rambling. This yields little or no value, be it rhetorical or practical. I trust that in time, as shown by my extensive [Training/Expertise/Research/Time spent evacuating], the price of the HD800 will [Fall precipitously/ Remain as steadfast as the sun] on account of its [Terrible/Fantastic] value and manufacturing. Not that such trivial numerology will matter in the slightest when [Insert current favorite headphone manufacturer here] releases their new flagship, which will indubitably render all other offerings into the world of elite headphones wholly obsolete.

Sincerely,
Amus Ignor
Proof? Since w/o it, which in fact I see none of, your comments look nothing more than a classic example of, on the whole, grossly-overstated pompous rambling.
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post #108 of 147
12/16/09 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Mostro View Post
Many of the assumptions in this thread are laughable. It is obvious that many have never owned and run a business based on manufacturing -- and have absolutely no clue about the cost associated with manufacturing and bringing products to market. A clear case of "you don't know what you don't know"!

QFT
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post #109 of 147
12/16/09 at 7:44pm
whoever said Sennheiser had to back up their sale prices with anything? They are a company trying to make a profit. They clearly had a team of intelligent people who decided that the most profit would be made at this price point. Simple math involving guessing at the # units sold at each price point. Numbers with highest profit wins.

It's not like they are providing a service or something (as much as I wish that were true). Insurance companies are another story. People die because of their high prices, policies, etc. But Sennheiser isn't providing any kind of audio bliss service or something, sadly, they are just another company trying to make money. So if you think the HD800 is too expensive, buy something else. Just like the 7 dollar bag of white rice I didn't purchase at Whole Foods the other day because I would have felt like a fool.
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post #110 of 147
12/16/09 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rds View Post

And this is not to say that I think the hd-800 is lacking or overpriced. Yes, I think profit margins are huge, but probably less so than grado rs-1s.
People "think" lots of things. Unfortunately, a lot of things that people "think" get passed along on the internet as if there is some factual basis for what they "think."
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post #111 of 147
12/16/09 at 8:39pm
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Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
People "think" lots of things. Unfortunately, a lot of things that people "think" get passed along on the internet as if there is some factual basis for what they "think."
In other words: there is no *there* there.
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post #112 of 147
12/16/09 at 9:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Mostro View Post
Many of the assumptions in this thread are laughable. It is obvious that many have never owned and run a business based on manufacturing -- and have absolutely no clue about the cost associated with manufacturing and bringing products to market. A clear case of "you don't know what you don't know"!
please enlighten us! or is your post pure unfounded bs?
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post #113 of 147
12/16/09 at 9:13pm
There's a lot more to cost than just cost for materials and assembly. There's also the issue of intellectual effort expended in coming up with the design, brand value etc. In the end, it's the consumer that sets the price. If the consumer thinks it's worthless, then even if it literally costs $1400 to manufacture, then it's worthless to the consumer. OTOH, it may cost a little to manufacture, but if there's a lot of demand for it and the consumer is willing to pay a lot to get it, then the price goes up.

The HD800 is clearly worth the price it's being sold at since Sennheiser is so far, quite happy selling it at that price.
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post #114 of 147
12/16/09 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidhunternyc View Post
When I finally saw the HD800 in person at J&R, to tell you the truth, they looked and felt even cheaper than the photos (the Leona plastic feeling far less inert than ABS plastic or bakelite). I don't care if they sound like manna from heaven (does manna have a sound?), I wouldn't pay more the $600 for these headphones.

Thank Grado for all of this nonsense. They've proved that with the right marketing (hype) to the right group you can charge $1400+ for things that cost about $20 to make. Now everyone is pushing these crazy prices. Beyerdynamic just released theirs and I fully expect that AKG will follow.
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post #115 of 147
12/16/09 at 9:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgl View Post
The HD800 is made by specialized suppliers, most of them located in Germany and assembled (+driver production) in their HQ in Wedemark - the other headphones "from Sennheiser" are not made by these suppliers, most of them are made by chinese OEM, a friend of mine broke three headsets (PC-Series, each cost over 100€) within one week! These are not real Sennheiser-products!

What about HD650? Is that not a real Sennheiser product?
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post #116 of 147
12/16/09 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rds View Post
There's some very strange things being said in this thread.

First off, I have worked in various r&d labs (both academic and commercial) and the idea that it took 10 employees several years to take a dynamic transducer and put a hole in the center is so ridiculous it is laughable. The meager technological "achievements" of these headphones require almost no innovation and should take very little time to realize (ie the on the scale of a couple months, and that time being a result of waiting for production rather than running simulations of delving into new physics ).

Second, defenders of these $1400 headphones please stop making claims such as we don't agree with the pricing because we are too poor, or that we want manufacturers to be our slaves.

These headphones are nice high quality phones. The require precious little innovation and low materials cost. The profit margins are astronomical and the prices are fixed. They may be worth $1400 to some people granted.

Why does this stuff annoy me? Because manufacturers look at these responses and say: 'Wow, we don't need to make something great or something of good value. Rather we simply must create a perception of superiority - which is done not by best performance but highest asking price.'
Now we see the me too T1s. If AKG releases something in the $1400 range I will be very annoyed. But I'm still holding out faith for them.
(if AKG actually came out with some outstanding breakthrough, then $1400 could be justified perhaps. But a transducer with two holes in it isn't gonna cut it for me).
Wow. Well said. This is all about keeping up appearances. I have to thank all those who bought those stupid $1000+ Grados. They are the kings of offering the most cheaply made, garage designed and manufactured products at the most ridiculous prices to make some kind of statement. They probably laugh at their customers. Products made in China are made with much better quality control than those. I had to say it.

While all you guys keep falling for the same old Audiophile crap I truly hope modern technology and awareness will put an end to this stupid game. I think the new generation of people are getting wise to all the tricks. $200 headphone cable? Burn-in? I've been through about $20,000 in audio products and I've come to realize that most of it is about some guy trying to see how far he can push the envelope with pricing and keep the sheep coming. These are not 3 times better than the HD600. Give me a break if you want to tell me they came up with some revelation that their years in the headphone business did not help them achieve. It's all in incremental upgrade, not some new transducer technology that changes the earth. So they figured out how to reduce some resonances - big deal. It's a damn wire rolled up and attached to a piece of plastic.
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post #117 of 147
12/16/09 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sxr71 View Post
While all you guys keep falling for the same old Audiophile crap... etc

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post #118 of 147
12/16/09 at 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sxr71 View Post
Thank Grado for all of this nonsense. They've proved that with the right marketing (hype) to the right group you can charge $1400+ for things that cost about $20 to make. Now everyone is pushing these crazy prices. Beyerdynamic just released theirs and I fully expect that AKG will follow.
Come on let's keep this in the realm or reality.

There is no way these would cost $20 to make unless Sennheiser was selling an obscene volume of these. These are not a commodity item that is mass produced in quantities that could offset the non material costs. Even on commodity items the prices don't drop until the R&D, capital, and tooling costs can be offset.

There is far more than the material costs to produce these.

With the number of components in these phones there must be a huge investment in tooling.
Investment in R&D
Marketing and other sales and administrative costs.

I'm sure there is a huge mark up on them, but I'm also sure Sennheiser isn't making money on them yet.
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post #119 of 147
12/16/09 at 10:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
One comment on pricing....

I get people ringing me wanting to try headphones, but no-one demonstrates anymore - why? - because people used to go to the shops for a demo and then go away and buy on the internet because it was cheaper.

So the shops do all the work and get no sale.

With the HD 800 the customer can get a proper demonstration and the people who do the work get the sale because you can't buy it cheaper on the internet.

Having a price free-for-all eventually ends up bad for the customer because everything will only be on line and you can never see or try before you buy any more.

Okay that's fair enough. I agree that the art of shopping for audio has nearly passed us. But why then is Amazon selling this? For $1399.95 no less?

If you really wanted to preserve the customer experience with the sale of these phones and that really is your rationale for the wide price disparity between it and its predecessor then why is Amazon selling it?

How do you justify all the margin you hoped to preserve for dealers who still demonstrate products to customers now going to Amazon where a computer basically prints out your order in a warehouse somewhere and it gets put on the next UPS truck?

I really want to know.
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post #120 of 147
12/16/09 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sxr71 View Post
These are not 3 times better than the HD600.
You're right. They're way beyond that. I don't have an actual number I can use but they're many times better than the HD600, far more than 3.
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