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Transistors and the newbie scratching head - please help!

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Hi! As the title says, I'm a diy newbie attempting to build a Firstwatt F2 and a couple of other devices and I am discovering all kind of stupid things that I don't know how to solve because of my total lack of knowledge / experience. Please help me clarify a few of them:

1. Regarding mounting the FETs on the heatsink, I have two options, please tell me what would be the best:
a) I found some mica locally, looks pretty good (thinness is about 0.05mm, with a few scratches) and I have some Arctic Silver Ceramique.
b) I bought from Mouser some Laird Technologies T-gard 5000, they don't look like those in the picture, are rectangular instead and just a bit larger than the IRFPs. I suppose they should be used without thermal compound, right?
EDIT: taking another look in the T-gard datasheet I see that "T-gardTM 5000 is ideal for applications that require a delta temperature across the interface of 2.0°C/watt or
higher on a TO-220 clip mounted @ 50 psi pressure." Not good enough for the ~70W heat / channel / 2 IRFP's of the F2, I suppose?!

2. Regarding the handling of the so called electrostatic sensitive devices, what kind of precautions do you take? Quite a few of the items I got from Mouser came in protection bags with a warning label: transistors, diodes & bridges, an integrated I needed for another power supply... Do I have to wear an antistatic wrist strap? Could it be a realistic / necessary and sufficient solution to manipulate them by only touching them with the material the ESD-safe bag is made of? Sorry, this is basic knowledge, I know, but I don't have it...

Thanks a lot!
post #2 of 18
Thread Starter 
For question nr.2, I found out all I needed to know.

What do you think about my first question? I must do a correction, I was wrong, the TO247 mica I could find locally is pretty thick, 0.1mm (0.004''). Also, what would be an acceptable temperature of the IRFP 240 / 9240 on the long term? I think I would get up to ~75 degrees Celsius at the surface of contact with the heatsink, is this too much?
post #3 of 18
Do you need to isolate the FET's from the heatsink?

The FETs have a maximum operating temp of 150C so it will be good until then. To keep it below the maximum rating at 75W heat per channel at 75C, you need a maximum thermal resistance of 1 C/W:

Maximum thermal resistance = (maximum operating temp - typical operating temp)/Watts dissipated

So in your case the Laird pad would not work. The sum of the resistances from junction to sink need to be less than 1. Can you find the resistance of your mica? I think your expected temp of 75C might also be a bit off.

I'm 99% sure on my math, can someone verify?
post #4 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emooze View Post
The FETs have a maximum operating temp of 150C so it will be good until then.
yeah, perhaps one time Try to keep the junction temperature half of the maximum operating temp. This will prolong the life of the devices considerably.
post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvdunhill View Post
yeah, perhaps one time Try to keep the junction temperature half of the maximum operating temp. This will prolong the life of the devices considerably.
I thought so. However, half of 150 degrees means 75 at the junction, and I think I remember reading that there's about 25 degrees difference between the junction and the contact surface of the transistor, I'm not very sure about that though... This would mean 50 C at this contact surface, and in a room at 30 C would require about 0.3 C/W total value of heatsink + mica & compound, for example, so it's not realistic. If the above is correct (which I'm definitely not sure of) then a more realistic target would be ~100 degrees at the junction. Is this right or I'm way off?

Emooze, I'm not sure I get it. The Laird pads have 1.26 C / square cm / W (see attachment), and the IRFP's are about 2 square centimeters contact surface. Doesn't this result in ~ 0.65 C / W / transistor, or ~ 22C temperature difference between transistor and heatsink? (0.65 x ~35W) Combining this with a heatsink thermal resistance of, say, 0.3 C / W, in a room at 30 degrees I would get 51 degrees heatsink at the contact surface and 73 degrees transistor at the contact surface. What is wrong with this calculation? On another forum somebody told me I'm misinterpreting the data in the Laird datasheet, but I didn't understand why.

Yes, the FETs need to be electrically isolated from the heatsinks.
I forgot to mention that I have no idea what is he thermal resistance of the mica that I have, all I know is that it's 0.1mm thick.
LL
post #6 of 18
That datasheet is really confusing. Calculated the area and then thermal resistance does give you about 0.65C/W. I can't see any other way interpret it. But even with the resistance at 0.65 and potentially a bit more, the total resistance is approximately ~1.4 C/W junction to sink (0.83 junction to case + 0.65 case to sink) which is over the maximum resistance.

Is the 70W dissipated the right number?
post #7 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Quichotte View Post
would require about 0.3 C/W total value of heatsink + mica & compound, for example, so it's not realistic.
sounds about right to me, that's what I'd shoot for.
post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 
Yes, 70W heat / channel / 2 IRFP devices, so let's say 35W each (I'm not sure they are both dissipating the same power).

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvdunhill View Post
sounds about right to me, that's what I'd shoot for.
Please don't scare the **** of me! Your post got me depressed! 0.3C/W is a pretty good figure for the heatsink itself, and I think my huge diy one will achieve this figure, but the 0.1mm mica + compound might add some...not sure...0.4 or 0.5C/W for each transistor?

On the other hand, I see other people using Conrad MF30-2F-151.5 0.25C/W heatsinks or others which don't seem notably better and silpads or mica (see this log, this log and this picture). A heatsink temperature of 60C was usually considered OK. Perhaps there's a chance for me too? I understand it would be ideal to have half the max. temp. rating at the junction, but let's put it another way, what would be an acceptable figure? What about 90 or 95C? (not "negotiating" - lol - just trying to learn the proper and at the same time realistic - for me - way of doing it).
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Quichotte View Post
0.3C/W is a pretty good figure for the heatsink itself, and I think my huge diy one will achieve this figure, but the 0.1mm mica + compound might add some...not sure...0.4 or 0.5C/W for each transistor?
yup, I was referring to the thermal resistance of the heat sink alone. Remember, this value will drop as the heat sink temperature increases. It's not a "fixed" number. ~0.4 C/W is a good number for something like the Bergquist K10 pads found at Digikey. These don't need any compound either and are isolating. Also, remember this number varies with torque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Quichotte View Post
A heatsink temperature of 60C was usually considered OK. Perhaps there's a chance for me too?
exactly. A good indicator is if you are forced to remove your hand after holding it to the heat sink for 3 seconds. Worse case, you have to lower the bias, not exactly the end of the world.
post #10 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I feel much better now. I had already ordered all the stuff from Mouser and ordering again from them, Digikey etc. some small things like the Bergquist pads is not very attractive because of the shipping costs. A Mouser representative erroneously told me I could get some out of stock TO247 mounting kits later without any additional shipping costs and I almost clicked the "Order" button when I saw I would have payed 40 Euro for the shipping of the small 1-2 Euro total value kits. Still, I feel more confident now, worst case I'll use the 0.1mm mica and see what happens.

By the way, the surface of the transistors doesn't need to be smooth sanded, does it?

Thanks again!
post #11 of 18
No, I wouldn't recommend sanding.
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Quichotte View Post
By the way, the surface of the transistors doesn't need to be smooth sanded, does it?
yes, I do this with 600 grit paper. Some of the larger packages (TO-3P, TO-247) can be very uneven, and depending on the pad you use, this can be beneficial.
post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 
In the end I think I'll use the compound with the thinnest mica I can find, there is still some hope for thinner one locally.

Re. sanding the transistors, it's funny how I get two advices from the two guys who showed their willingness to help, and the 2 advices are opposite. Well, I suppose it's also normal, everyone has his / her own experience that can very well be different from the others'. The reason why I saw this idea recommended was because of the sometimes higher plastic edge of the transistor that could prevent a good contact of its metal surface to the sink. I will ask on other forums as well. In case I do sand them, I have sand paper up to 1500.

Thanks again for the help you offered me!
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Quichotte View Post
The reason why I saw this idea recommended was because of the sometimes higher plastic edge of the transistor that could prevent a good contact of its metal surface to the sink
That's exactly my experience as well

post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Quichotte View Post
In the end I think I'll use the compound with the thinnest mica I can find, there is still some hope for thinner one locally.

Re. sanding the transistors, it's funny how I get two advices from the two guys who showed their willingness to help, and the 2 advices are opposite. Well, I suppose it's also normal, everyone has his / her own experience that can very well be different from the others'. The reason why I saw this idea recommended was because of the sometimes higher plastic edge of the transistor that could prevent a good contact of its metal surface to the sink. I will ask on other forums as well. In case I do sand them, I have sand paper up to 1500.

Thanks again for the help you offered me!
If there is truly a visible mis-match between the plastic housing and the metal interface, then some judicious sanding may be advantageous. However, finish sanding is addressed by the heat-transfer goo. That's what's intended to truly fill in the macroscopic/microscopic surface irregularities and present a truly uniform heat transfer interface.

Most of the time, I'd leave this type of refined building technique (sanding transistors) to the more experienced and meticulous builders like luvdunhill. The rest of us seem to make it work by slobbering on some additional grease or using a flow-able heat pad such as Bergquist, Thermasil, or similar.
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