Hey guys,

I'm thinking about going to medical school. There have already been some major cut backs to research funding, and in all likelihood that pattern is going to continue for the next several years. Universities are hiring fewer and fewer full time faculty and instead replacing them with sessional instructors. All in all, the job prospects for people in my particular sub-discipline are rather uninspiring. Adding to the mix that even when there are jobs, you have relatively little control over where you get to live (if you get hired by the University of Pittsburg, then you're going to be moving to Pittsburg), and quite frankly, the pay (relative to the amount of training required to get there), sucks.

Medical school is something I'd been considering through out my education. When I was working on my PhD, I decided that if I didn't find a postdoc I was interested in, then I'd go to medical school. I am currently working as a postdoc on a project I'm interested in, and I'm waiting to hear back if I got hired as a researcher at the University of Oxford, but I'm becoming less certain that this is what I want to do (i.e. become an academic). If I get the Oxford job, I'll probably take it, since it's a tremendously interesting project, but if I don't get it, then I'll definitely be more heavily leaning towards medical school.

I've got a lot of questions, but my first question is- how bad is residency? And how doers being a fellow compare? I'm 31 now, and I won't be able to apply for med school until September of 2010 (which means admissions of 2011). My wife and I are trying to have children, and it seems kind of terrifying to have small children at home and being constantly stuck at the hospital for three years of residency training. Plus, being totally broke and poor while I'm in medical school also seems like it'd suck, though we've been totally broke before. I'd definitely qualify for loans (at least $150,000) but would that also provide enough to help live off of, assuming my wife would also be working? How much do residents and fellows typically get paid?

The specialities I'm interested in are infectious disease, anesthesiology, and pathology, and if all else where equal, probably in that order. Intellectually I'm the most interested in ID, but there is a three year residency and then a three year fellowship. Anesthesiology also seems really interesting, and it seems to pay a quite a bit better. I'd definitely be interested in pathology too, but I don't think that'd satisfy my desire for patient care. I realize that none of these specialities are primary care specialities, and I"m not necessarily interested in being principally a primary care physician, but I would like some doctor-patient interactions, since I am definitely a people person.

I'm pretty sure I have the necessary grades to get into medical school- my GPA in my last two years is in excess of 3.9, I've got about 6 papers published, and another two in preparation for publication. I haven't written or started studying for the MCAT yet, nor have I started volunteering in a hospital setting yet, which I plan to start doing in January.

Thanks a lot,
Brad

4 years of grueling medical school, followed by 3-7 years of internship/residency/fellowship requiring lots of sacrifice not only by you but your wife and kids...unless you are really unhappy with your current prospects, I wouldn't recommend it...
Is it doable? Probably. Is it worth it? That is the tough question.

Based on your credentials, I don't think you would have any difficulty getting into a medical school. Have you taken MCATs yet?

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I am pretty unhappy with the current prospects, since they're extremely difficult to come by, and even if you get them, they don't pay that well. On average, I'd expect my salary as an MD to be between double and four times what I'd make as a faculty member- especially when you factor in that I'm probably 2-3 years away from being a faculty member anyway, and the entire time I'd work as a postdoc I'd make between $35,000 to $50,00. Financially, it's a no brainer. As an MD, I can work almost anywhere I want to, versus being a Prof where I'm pretty restricted about where I can get a job. I'm not worried about gruelling medical school- mostly the residency, but the flip side of that is, I'd rather have three gruelling years of residency rather than always struggling for funding for my entire life. 3 years of insanity versus a life time of constantly begging for money? That's also a no brainer. The only reason I can think of not going to medical school is because I'd be unemployed for 4 years of medical school, and then have three or four years of insanity as a resident.

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Yeah, I agree- that's what I'm trying to figure out.

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No, I haven't. I'm really good at writing tests though, so while I need to start studying for the MCAT sooner (rather than later), I'm not really worried about them. Plus, I'd probably go to the University of Toronto because my family is from there, and I have a lot of friends who still live there, and U of T only uses your MCAT scores for cut off grades.

There are things I wish I knew or even thought about before/while going through medical training.

Non-Medical:

Real estate Broker (not just real estate agent)
Commercial real estate agent/broker
Administrator/owner of Assisted Living Homes
Land/property investor group/corporate
etc

Medical:

Acute Rehab and/or Nursing Facility owner/administrator
Get MBA along with MD for large hospital administrator
Get JD with MD and go into legal/defense teams of medical groups/hospital.
Utilization management for medical groups, insurance companies
etc

Now that I know more, I was so clueless about what some of the other options could offer in life. With the medical/malpractice/healthcare/Obama climate today, you *could* end up overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated as an MD very easily, especially in popular larger cities.

Being a physician and an Infectious Diseases researcher, I find the work thrilling and interesting. There are very many headaches due to bureaucracy, funding issues, pay etc. but any position or job has them and probably more so. I disagree with Jon L about Obama's health care initiative as I think it will stabilize health care. More importantly, people will get better care as more will be insured. I am not in the mood to argue about this point, but as opposed to most others that are against health care changes, I have more of an inside view. I am not in this to make money, if I was, i would have been a dentist, lawyer, etc. Being an academic physician is not the way to make lots of dough. However it is a way to keep yourself stimulated, alert and interested. It is a long road and tuition is not cheap, but there is something to be said to using your intelligence to its fullest and not just use it to run a hedge fund, etc and scam people for money. I know it sounds blustery but it is really a calling and not just a vocation, so make the decision carefully.
Good luck, and PM if you have any questions.

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Maybe there's a halfway point between research and selling out? Maybe I'm fooling myself, maybe I did sell out, but I too got tired of the no-money world of research and went in to business, trying to avoid the dark side.

Clutz, no thought of industry? Pharma would give you a job in a heartbeat. You could have your pick of places to live (North Carolina, California ... places people yearn for).

i am an anesthesiologist and i would say go for it at age 31. assuming you start med school by 33 you will finish school/residency when you are 41. that still gives you 20 years of career.
now you will be able to pay back your loans within 2-3 years(150K) if you live simply or stretch it out since i am sure by then you will want the big house and fast car because the road will be long and arduous. my dad is a phD and i agree that they can be severely underpaid relative to educational level. that said if you have the interest and want to help your fellow man then go to medical school.
my only other piece of advice is dont get divorced in the process. it wont be worth it financially if you get divorced..(ie dont fool around with all the aggressive hottie nurses who just want a doctor husband soo bad )

as for residency difficulty dont worry about that..by that time you are so used to working hard (ie studying 12-15 hours a day in the first 2 years of med school and long rotations in the last 2 years of med school that you become used to missing birthdays and anniversarys etc.) you put your time in and before you know it you will be done..

residents in the big city now make about 50k a year and it goes up a couple thousand each year...not too shabby..i always thought it was arrogant of residents to complain about being "poor" when they made more than alot of people around them listening to them complain.

we had a family friend who quit being a Veterinarian and went into med school at 40.

Hi all,

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. I plan on PMing you LeeMark and 1911, I appreciate it. I've got a bunch of questions about residency, etc.

Wavoman, I'm going to PM/email you about going into industry. I'd be interested in going into industry too, I just don't know what my options are, and I don't know where to start looking for them, or even how I would go about marketing myself.


I've talked about this a fair amount with my wife. She's being very supportive. She's a bit concerned about being effectively a single parent while I'd be a resident. She's a public school teacher, so we'd probably go back to Canada for medical school- that way, she could teach a year and then take a year of maternity leave, and then go bak to teach a year, and take another year of maternity leave. It'd be tough financially, but the academic job route alternatives aren't terribly attractive, either. Even if I assume I get a professors job at a decent paying school tomorrow, I still end up ahead financially in the long run- and I end up a head by a lot. Plus, right now it feels like there is very little job security in academia (they're getting rid of tenure at a lot of schools), there aren't a lot of academic jobs (and I don't have a lot of confidence that they'll be coming back any time soon), and they're scattered all over the place. The only issues that I can think of right now are how difficult it might make family life for several years (although the flip side of that is family life as an academic could also suck, and for a lot longer), and that a reasonable income through my 30s might be worth more to me in terms of quality of life than a huge salary much later on. But I don't know.

I assume you have a PhD in a biology related field? Can I assume you have a strong background in quantitative methods and analysis? And by strong I mean things like SEM, HLM, etc.

There are a wide variety of fields where people with quantitative skills are needed. I know somebody with a PhD in quantitative psychology who recent started teaching in a school of business - the pay there is a lot better than a school of psychology.

Beyond that, there are also openings in educational research since so much educational research is quantitative. You don't get the tenure track, but you do get paid better than a faculty member and you don't have to sacrifice your life (as much...) with balancing teaching, research, advising, dissertation committees, and all that other stuff that comes with teaching at a research university.

So keep that in mind if you have a quantitative skills.