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FIRST IMPRESSIONS: Nuforce uDAC USB DAC AMP with line out and S/PDIF out - Page 80

post #1186 of 1841
2/8/10 at 12:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict View Post
I'm watching the Superbowl - not picking apart the Pico and uDAC under a microscope.
It was a good game, closer than I thought it would be.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

NuForce Icon uDAC (USB DAC and headphone amp)
post #1187 of 1841
2/8/10 at 4:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Knight View Post
The uDAC and Pico Amp/DAC have different sound. I prefer the uDAC. I have both and I don't "imagine" the conclusion

Yes, you can use the uDAC with the Slim by Laptop (100% volume) -> uDAC (100% volume) -> RCA-mini -> Slim -> your headphones.
That means I have to buy some RCA to mini interconnects? Damn. Another thing to factor in. Thanks!
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post #1188 of 1841
2/8/10 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by userlander View Post
Why would I need to hear the Pico? The DAC-Extasy is a better DAC than the uDAC, so if the Pico is the equivalent of the uDAC, necessarily that means that the DAC-Extasy is also a better DAC than the uDAC. It's simple logic.

If the Pico is a better DAC than the uDAC, which I suspect it is, then it also doesn't matter. In that case, the Pico is also better or at least equal to the DAC-Extasy.
Um, I'm really not sure what you're trying to do here because you're making leaps of logic.
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post #1189 of 1841
2/8/10 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by userlander View Post
Agreed on that point - or maybe it just speaks to most things being overpriced. Because are you saying the uDAC competes with the Pico in the same "class," but only has a different sound signature? That would greatly surprise me based on what I heard, on everything I've read regarding the Pico, and my own comparisons with the Extasy and V-DAC. The Pico in that case would be *very* highly overrated -- and way overpriced -- nowhere near worth the $349 they charge for it. I find that hard to believe with all the great reviews and long track record of approval Pico has.

Or else perhaps I just got a defective uDAC?
I don't agree with some of your leaps in logic. I'm not sure how to answer this other than to repeat what I have said in the past. In no way do I regret the $349 for the Pico DAC-only, nor do I think it is highly over-rated. There is something about the sound that is "just right" for me.

Prior to you asking me this I said, "In my comparisons, the detail is fairly equivalent, and the uDAC is a little warmer, more rounded in the highs, and a little more forward in a mids. The Pico DAC is just to the warm side of neutral with a deeper soundstage and a little more sparkle in the highs.

So, it depends on what sound you want, as they do sound different. If I could only have one, I'd take the Pico DAC-only for the Pico Slim, as they were made for each other. But the uDAC is wonderful for the price and comes closer than a $99 DAC should be allowed to."

I don't feel that statement above needs to be clarified with a #1, 2, 3 ranking. However, if the uDAC was also $349 and I wanted a DAC only, I would recommend the Pico DAC-only for the same price. I would add the caveat that if one needed a built-in headphone amp and S/PDIF conversion, that the slight loss in depth of stage and highs would be a reasonable compromise to pick the uDAC instead; especially if you were combining it with a bright or neutral amp like the Grahm Slee NOVO and SRG I where the Pico wasn't a good match.

It's the $99 price of the uDAC that makes up for the slightly lesser performance. If someone asks me is it worth the extra $250 for the Pico when they don't have a desktop amp yet, then I would say to get the uDAC with a $250 desktop amp if that's all you can afford. But, the uDAC is still good enough that it is not out of place driving a $600-$700 Woo WA6 or Solo SRG II and making one very happy (or Sonett, see below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdr. Seraphim View Post
At least with the Sonett, ES3X and µDAC combo, resolution easily outpaces the Pico Amp/DAC (I don't have the Pico DAC only). The upper midrange and high's are better resolved. Cymbal decay is clearly evident with the µDAC, whereas the Pico seems to blur content.

I'd give edge definition to the µDAC as well. That warmth that everyone talks about might be just what music sounds like. At least to these ears, and with the aforementioned equipment, music sounds more naturally reproduced with the µDAC than the Pico Amp/DAC. I tried plugging in my Pico after listening to the µDAC and it has been sidelined for now.

Maybe it's just system synergy, but with such a teaser product like the µDAC, I can't wait to get my hands on some higher resolution DAC like the upcoming DAC-9. I might even try the HDP, but I really don't need another amp. I'm thinking that the DAC-9, or moving even higher upscale to the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC might hasten the light at the end of this tunnel.
I have always maintained that the Pico DAC-only has a little better micro-detail, air ambience and space than the Pico DAC/amp used as a pre-amp. I have compared both, and have both right here. It does depend on what gear you're using together, your preferences, and your expectations as to which you might prefer. But, I suspect you would like the Pico DAC-only more than the Pico DAC/amp which you are using as a pre-amp. The Pico DAC/amp headphone out is pretty neutral, but it's one extra amp stage to go through before reaching your full-size amp. The uDAC is also a little better line-out than headphone out.
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post #1190 of 1841
2/8/10 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict View Post
It's the $99 price of the uDAC that makes up for the slightly lesser performance.
I agree with that, it just seemed that people were saying that -- individual differences aside -- the uDAC was a comparable DAC to the Pico, which surprised me given not only the price difference, but the rave reviews I've always read about the Pico. I mean at some point the issue of sound QUALITY has to come into play, doesn't it? I thought that ultimately that's what we're here for. But that seems to be being left out of a lot of these one-liner impressions ("I just got it and OMGZRG it's an amazing DAC!!!!"), and at some point, after the "new" aspect has worn off, it doesn't seem fair to other manufacturers to be implying that the performance is the same in the cases where it very likely or even definitely isn't. Not that it's not a great budget DAC for the price, like you said -but let's not go overboard! Someone - i forget who it was, was comparing it favorably to a $1000 DAC! Okay, it's a new toy and good for the price, but let's try to have a little perspective!
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post #1191 of 1841
2/8/10 at 7:09pm
Let's put it this way, it is a VERY GOOD value for the price, but of course there are DACs better than it, that cost more. Whether or not you decide to pay the extra cash for the higher end ones is solely up to you. Clearly, alot of people are content with the uDAC's performance and price point, but its not, by far, the holy grail.
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post #1192 of 1841
2/8/10 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict View Post
I have always maintained that the Pico DAC-only has a little better micro-detail, air ambience and space than the Pico DAC/amp used as a pre-amp. I have compared both, and have both right here. It does depend on what gear you're using together, your preferences, and your expectations as to which you might prefer. But, I suspect you would like the Pico DAC-only more than the Pico DAC/amp which you are using as a pre-amp. The Pico DAC/amp headphone out is pretty neutral, but it's one extra amp stage to go through before reaching your full-size amp. The uDAC is also a little better line-out than headphone out.
Thanks Larry. I don't doubt that the extra interface (e.g. the Pico acting like a preamp) might in fact veil some of the detail possible by the Pico DAC only variant. And if that's the case, then the extra components in the audio path (op-amp and attenuator--especially the attenuator) in the Pico Amp/DAC are not so transparent.

Which brings us back to the µDAC. If it outpaces the Pico Amp/DAC, which I believe it does (and some other's concur too), but is close to the Pico DAC only, then as you said, "...the uDAC is wonderful for the price and comes closer than a $99 DAC should be allowed to."

Re the Pico DAC only, it sounds like it would be even more to my liking than the Pico Amp/DAC, only different in presentation than the µDAC.

Good observations Larry!
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post #1193 of 1841
2/8/10 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberspyder View Post
Let's put it this way, it is a VERY GOOD value for the price, but of course there are DACs better than it, that cost more. Whether or not you decide to pay the extra cash for the higher end ones is solely up to you. Clearly, alot of people are content with the uDAC's performance and price point, but its not, by far, the holy grail.
Exactly - well put. Like in another thread, the guy had a budget of I think around $300, and was looking for a very neutral dac, with "accurate bass and lush mids." Because of everything he's been reading, he was considering the uDAC, but that is not going to do what he wants. The uDAC mid-bass is slightly colored, and the upper mids are a little recessed. That's the opposite of what he wants. So he is being misled to some extent by the one-sided and largely uncritical praise for the uDAC, thinking it's something that it really isn't. I'm afraid that is probably going to happen more than we know, especially when people start implying it's the equivalent of a Pico, or a $1,000 tube dac, "just different," or just a different "presentation." Not really.
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post #1194 of 1841
2/8/10 at 7:36pm
On the contrary, if there are people asking for a budget amp or XXX under $100 etc...the uDAC is very hard to beat at THAT price point.
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post #1195 of 1841
2/8/10 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberspyder View Post
On the contrary, if there are people asking for a budget amp or XXX under $100 etc...the uDAC is very hard to beat at THAT price point.
Again, I agree. But when their budget (like I said) is $300, and they want something neutral, that's not the uDAC. The uDAC is colored, not neutral. But he thought it was apparently b/c of some of the misleading comments he's been reading, or I guess just the "buzz" in general. That's good for the manufacturer, but not so good for our fellow head-fier, who is going to end up with something different than what he/she's expecting.
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post #1196 of 1841
2/8/10 at 7:47pm
Not at all, there is a noticeable difference between the H/O of my D2+ and the uDAC, much 'fuller' sound in the uDAC, where as the D2+ is boring in contrast, but not crap, just different.
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post #1197 of 1841
2/8/10 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberspyder View Post
Not at all, there is a noticeable difference between the H/O of my D2+ and the uDAC, much 'fuller' sound in the uDAC, where as the D2+ is boring in contrast, but not crap, just different.
Right - there are differences. So just to use your example, if someone said they have a budget of $300 and they want a DAC that *wasn't* full sounding, but was more neutral and flat sounding, then the uDAC wouldn't be the best recommendation, right? That's what I'm saying. People are somehow getting the impression that the uDAC is going to fit the bill in cases where it might not be the best choice. And imo that's not really fair to other manufacturers, or to the user him/herself. It's a little misleading.
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post #1198 of 1841
2/8/10 at 8:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by userlander View Post
I agree with that, it just seemed that people were saying that -- individual differences aside -- the uDAC was a comparable DAC to the Pico, which surprised me given not only the price difference, but the rave reviews I've always read about the Pico. I mean at some point the issue of sound QUALITY has to come into play, doesn't it? I thought that ultimately that's what we're here for. But that seems to be being left out of a lot of these one-liner impressions ("I just got it and OMGZRG it's an amazing DAC!!!!"), and at some point, after the "new" aspect has worn off, it doesn't seem fair to other manufacturers to be implying that the performance is the same in the cases where it very likely or even definitely isn't. Not that it's not a great budget DAC for the price, like you said -but let's not go overboard! Someone - i forget who it was, was comparing it favorably to a $1000 DAC! Okay, it's a new toy and good for the price, but let's try to have a little perspective!
Considering the cost, if it sounds that good--and it seems like there are some of us that believe the µDAC is preferable to our Pico Amp/DAC--then, we should all be doing the Snoopy happy dance! The Pico has had a decent run! It's not so far fetched that newer products sometimes eclipse older ones for a fraction of the cost. It's not the end game DAC after all. We're just having fun listening to music!

Maybe, what we're talking about is the difference in DAC and I/V implementation; the combination of the ESS Sabre DAC and removing the ancillary hardware necessary for implementing op-amps results in a very direct signal path. Hence, the improvement in SQ. In my system the lil' µDAC is more to my liking in resolution and balance. (From the perspective of balance, it is more similar to some reference systems I'm familiar with than the Pico Amp/Dac. Musically, I think that's what pulls me in.) I have not heard the Pico DAC only version, which Larry observes has similar resolution, just a different presentation (i.e. balance).
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post #1199 of 1841
2/8/10 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by userlander View Post
Right - there are differences. So just to use your example, if someone said they have a budget of $300 and they want a DAC that *wasn't* full sounding, but was more neutral and flat sounding, then the uDAC wouldn't be the best recommendation, right? That's what I'm saying. People are somehow getting the impression that the uDAC is going to fit the bill in cases where it might not be the best choice. And imo that's not really fair to other manufacturers, or to the user him/herself. It's a little misleading.
Do they still offer the 30-day tryout? If so, it's a good way to determine if it fits the system.
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post #1200 of 1841
2/8/10 at 10:05pm
How about the ES9022 24/192 DAC plugged into a modified HiFace USB 24/192 transport - sounds wonderful - see http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6353336-post532.html

The best of both worlds - no longer limited by the jitter & speed of the PCM2707, now you can hear what low jitter sounds like through headphones or analogue out to amplifier or SPDIF out to another DAC if you want to go more upmarket. I'm using this to drive headphones to great effect - Senn HD650s fantastic even AKG701s sound fantastic!
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

NuForce Icon uDAC (USB DAC and headphone amp)
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