Just listened to some Fostex T50RPs today... WOW! - Page 16

Modding the T50RP improves everything: mids and trebles clarity(less inner-cups reflections), tone(not plasticky sounding anymore), headstage(much wider and deeper SS), isolation(some thicker felt before the drivers goes a long way), low end bass(some open cell foam makes it loud and clear, but never overblown! It's just linear and not rolled off...clearly dynamics cannot output this kind of bass IMO).

The only real drawback is that when you take out the side vends felt, the phantom center channel is even dimmer...but oh my oh my, the SS becomes so wide! totally worth it from a computer source

"the notes are missing depth and envelop": yes, this might be it...play very fast music and the drivers sound like they're drowning.

"the T50RP can not represent a realistic 3D image of the soundwave hitting your ears": that requires angled earpads, like on the SONY's.

@Damnegy: 4m/h for an electric current? I'm afraid that'd need some more clues to back up your findings my friend. the d2k has 2 equally long cables and sounds horrid(due to its grossly recessed mids), many single sided phones kill it on the spot(cd3k/t50rp come to mind).

Thanks for your detailed answer SP Wild. I think I can see now how the bending movment/delay of the piece/baffle that support the driver could affect the separation of individual instruments (not blurred anymore) and maybe - slightly ? - the overall macro dynamic. Not sure about dynamic as for individual instruments, as all instruments would benefit from enhanced dynamic at the same time. But as you say, It is probably worth to give a try to those mods anyway.

Hey, I didn't say the T50RP stock had a "good" dynamic response, but I said "average", as compared to other headphones on the market. To me, in stock form, the T50RP clearly lacks dynamic range. My reference is this area is the DT48.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild 

 

In my opinion, cup resonances affect dynamics and instrument separation.  Improving cup resonances will improve dynamcis and separation.  This means that an individual instrument is more able to dynamically leap out from other background instruments more effectively hence separating the instruments more effectively.  With the instrument separated from surrounding "noise" more effectively one is more able to locate the instrument more precisely.  This is what "imaging" to me refers to.

 

Soundstage is relating to the width of the sound and is also somewhat related to imaging.  Soundstage has a lot to do with the drivers distance to the ears, another parameter of soundstage to me, is the ability of open backed cans to "crossfeed" sounds across the left and right cups - closed and semi-closed cans have a inherent disadvantage over open cup desgns - with open cup designs varying in the effectiveness of its inherent and naturally occuring crossfeed.  This is why the K1000 has the best soustage and imaging of any headphone ever.

 

I don't know what your other cans are, but the T50RP is very average in dynamics and severely smothered details.  I think you would be missing a great opportunity to create a can that costs 80 bucks that will perform better than 600 dollar headphones and very close to 1K cans with simple to carry out mods in both this thread and the giant orthdynamic thread.  I urge you to try this and I assure you, you will be amazed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shamu144 

Thanks for your detailed answer SP Wild. I think I can see now how the bending movment/delay of the piece/baffle that support the driver could affect the separation of individual instruments (not blurred anymore) and maybe - slightly ? - the overall macro dynamic. Not sure about dynamic as for individual instruments, as all instruments would benefit from enhanced dynamic at the same time. But as you say, It is probably worth to give a try to those mods anyway.

 

Hey, I didn't say the T50RP stock had a "good" dynamic response, but I said "average", as compared to other headphones on the market. To me, in stock form, the T50RP clearly lacks dynamic range. My reference is this area is the DT48.

 

 

 

Thankyou shamu.  I like to be able to help fellow members - especially the younger members, I remember when I was much younger, I had little money and there weren't forums to guide me in purchasing my audio equipment.  I have been very fortunate to of have sampled a large cross section of headphones in most price ranges.  I can say this, the T50RP at the price that they sell for is just plain lunacy - as the individual drive units are state of the art by modern standards and the drivers compete with drivers in the 1k category (drivers only, not the entire headphone as a cohesive unit).  Please, try these mods - take the plunge, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain - and then you have a can that competes well above the 500 dollar mark and many will prefer it over cans over the 1k mark.  I sense fear in this young padawan and fear leads to hate and hate leads to the...DARK SIDE! 

the dark side is stronger anyway, yoda doesn't know ----

For around the same price, would you suggest I buy W5000 drivers and use them in my AD700s or just go with a pair of T50RPs? I'm having a hard time deciding..

Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild 

 

Thankyou shamu.  I like to be able to help fellow members - especially the younger members, I remember when I was much younger, I had little money and there weren't forums to guide me in purchasing my audio equipment.  I have been very fortunate to of have sampled a large cross section of headphones in most price ranges.  I can say this, the T50RP at the price that they sell for is just plain lunacy - as the individual drive units are state of the art by modern standards and the drivers compete with drivers in the 1k category (drivers only, not the entire headphone as a cohesive unit).  Please, try these mods - take the plunge, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain - and then you have a can that competes well above the 500 dollar mark and many will prefer it over cans over the 1k mark.  I sense fear in this young padawan and fear leads to hate and hate leads to the...DARK SIDE! 

What mod would you recommend to start first with. I see at least 2 mods I would dare to try: dampen the back of the cup, and apply some blue tack on the baffle that hold the driver. No additional felt or damping for me since I am happy with the stock bass response. Which of those 2 mods would best reduce cup resonances?

Dampen the back of the cup:

Or bluetack the baffle that hold the driver:

Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry 

Modding the T50RP improves everything: mids and trebles clarity(less inner-cups reflections), tone(not plasticky sounding anymore), headstage(much wider and deeper SS), isolation(some thicker felt before the drivers goes a long way), low end bass(some open cell foam makes it loud and clear, but never overblown! It's just linear and not rolled off...clearly dynamics cannot output this kind of bass IMO).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild 

In my opinion, cup resonances affect dynamics and instrument separation.  Improving cup resonances will improve dynamcis and separation.  This means that an individual instrument is more able to dynamically leap out from other background instruments more effectively hence separating the instruments more effectively.  With the instrument separated from surrounding "noise" more effectively one is more able to locate the instrument more precisely.  This is what "imaging" to me refers to.

 

Soundstage is relating to the width of the sound and is also somewhat related to imaging.  Soundstage has a lot to do with the drivers distance to the ears, another parameter of soundstage to me, is the ability of open backed cans to "crossfeed" sounds across the left and right cups - closed and semi-closed cans have a inherent disadvantage over open cup desgns - with open cup designs varying in the effectiveness of its inherent and naturally occuring crossfeed.  This is why the K1000 has the best soustage and imaging of any headphone ever.

 

Hey, I think you might find this page from the K1K documentation interesting, since it comes directly from AKG refering to what they call "Accoustic Openness Coefficient", and also relates to why the 800 has such notable soundstage since it is the most open headphone I've encountered (K1K is an ear speaker ).

I wonder what the AKG engineers of that time thought of the CD3k and R10. 

Thanks roger, that was most enlightening - where'd you dig this up?  I thought that AKG eventually settled for conventional drivers for the K1000 - they sound kinda conventional to me, unless they are using a fourth type of design I am unaware of.

That certainly puts some perspective on the LCD2 debate when some feel they are congested and lack a soundstage - when I hear them to have a humungous stage.  This lends credence to my theory that many perceive soundstage via upper frequencies only.  The K1000s are really special as they truly showed me the limitations of conventional can staging - and I now get fatigue with a lot of my other cans.  I now get a clear sensation that some normal cans are splitting my brain down the middle with a left, a right and no center or forward image and a gaping hole in the middle - this is really fatiguing after jumping straight from the K1000s, yet the HD800 never gives me this sensation.  Unfortunately I don't have the LCD2s to see how they fare with the K1000 to contrast...my biggest fear now is that they will give me the hole in the head feeling - this will be a bummer to me.

Perhaps I need to carry out the hot swap with the HD650 and K701 with the K1000s...but I have banned myslef from headphone use for as long as it takes for me to feel that I have recovered from the hearing damage caused by the recent rounds of comparisons - and I know I've copped the biggest damage this time around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild 

Thanks roger, that was most enlightening - where'd you dig this up?  I thought that AKG eventually settled for conventional drivers for the K1000 - they sound kinda conventional to me, unless they are using a fourth type of design I am unaware of.

 

That certainly puts some perspective on the LCD2 debate when some feel they are congested and lack a soundstage - when I hear them to have a humungous stage.  This lends credence to my theory that many perceive soundstage via upper frequencies only.  The K1000s are really special as they truly showed me the limitations of conventional can staging - and I now get fatigue with a lot of my other cans.  I now get a clear sensation that some normal cans are splitting my brain down the middle with a left, a right and no center or forward image and a gaping hole in the middle - this is really fatiguing after jumping straight from the K1000s, yet the HD800 never gives me this sensation.  Unfortunately I don't have the LCD2s to see how they fare with the K1000 to contrast...my biggest fear now is that they will give me the hole in the head feeling - this will be a bummer to me.

 

Perhaps I need to carry out the hot swap with the HD650 and K701 with the K1000s...but I have banned myslef from headphone use for as long as it takes for me to feel that I have recovered from the hearing damage caused by the recent rounds of comparisons - and I know I've copped the biggest damage this time around.

I got it from wikiphonia. Actually the next page from that (this one) goes a little into detail of the driver. It is a dynamic driver, although different from pretty much any other dynamic I've seen, as unique as the 800 ring driver. Maybe you feel the effect more from the K1K jump because they are the champs of soundstage and also they are free field equalized unlike many headphones today which are diffuse field, so the difference is greater. Kind of happens to me with some headphones, for example the 3 blob effect of the HD6x0 is far more noticeable when doing direct comparisons.

Originally Posted by shamu144 

What mod would you recommend to start first with. I see at least 2 mods I would dare to try: dampen the back of the cup, and apply some blue tack on the baffle that hold the driver. No additional felt or damping for me since I am happy with the stock bass response. Which of those 2 mods would best reduce cup resonances?

 

Dampen the back of the cup:

 

Or bluetack the baffle that hold the driver: 

Bluetacking the baffles kills as much vibrations as resonances...it'd be like having a wooden baffle more or less. This is one of the most drastic tweaks indeed. Fill all the holes then use a philips screwdriver to make holes in the bluetack so it won't be "flat"(it's good to break resonances)

Another major tweak is to remove the side vents felt, and possibly angle the stock earpads(I've posted photos on how to angle them).

Then yes, put something absorbing right behind the driver itself, you want it to act as Dynaxorb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Strummer 

I got it from wikiphonia. Actually the next page from that (this one) goes a little into detail of the driver. It is a dynamic driver, although different from pretty much any other dynamic I've seen, as unique as the 800 ring driver. Maybe you feel the effect more from the K1K jump because they are the champs of soundstage and also they are free field equalized unlike many headphones today which are diffuse field, so the difference is greater. Kind of happens to me with some headphones, for example the 3 blob effect of the HD6x0 is far more noticeable when doing direct comparisons.

 

Wikiphonia is not coming up but the other article is very interesting.  Could you imagine how difficult it was to dampen the K1000 driver housing.  Conventional cans can dampen the cups by spreading its weight via the earpad firmly on or around your ear - as well as the frame.  The K1000 suffered badly because it could not rest against your temple and was in effect swinging freely along with diaphragm movement and I believe this is why they are less resolving than they could have been - you can feel the movement through the headband.  Simply placing a finger at the bottom of the cups and applying upward pressure results in improved clarity.

In order to identify clearly those cup resonances, I have been coughing intentionally with the T50RP on my ears, and could hear a very nasty echo... Same effect when speaking... That will indeed need some surgery

I got mine today and they really are suprisingly good stock.  They are still turning into Thunderpants, but they are pretty good.  I would imagine with the mods that are suggested in here they would be very good.

ahhh, maybe it's not about drivers speed after all...it's just that the dynamics range is really ugly at low volume sometimes, everything sounds mushy w/ DNB. if I make my music pass through a compressor plugin, some DNB tunes sound amazing. Low/mid tempo music/movies sound great at low volume. Maybe I'm a victim of burn-in, this phone has been on 24/7 for a month or so. I've also soldered the cable directly onto the drivers for an improved contact.

Just like shamu said "the notes are missing depth and envelop"...that's definitely the case on this tune(in FLAC): http://www.google.com/search?q=Ed+Rush+%26+Optical+Sick+Note&tbs=vid%3A1

I might need to reevaluate my dampening and ear resonances EQ...this tune was eye popping on the cd3k.

EDIT: Ah well, the bass response is to die for on this phone

"Mazzy Star - Fade Into You" is also hard to make sound good...Hope Sandoval's voice can easily sound veiled and hollow.

I think I was being far too critical of the stock T50s, they arrived smack bang when I was in the middle of analysing the merits of 1K plus cans and the remarks were made in direct contrast to those cans.

I have since stopped listening to all cans and have waited untill my hearing damage received in those rounds of comparisons to heal up somewhat.  With a fresh set of ears, I went about listening to the T50s on its own merits and left comparisons to it with the HD650 and K701.

The result, a win for the T50s.  They are smoother, lack grain that is evident to the other two cans and have superior instrument definition.  If I was asked to declare which of those sounded more true to life, I would have to answer that the T50s sound more true to life.  The vocals sound natural and treble precision is stunning and well extended to say the least, albeit many will find it too muted for their preferences.  The problems the T50 have in the areas of soundstaging, detail retrieval, cup resonance and dynamics to me is far less severe than the problems evident in the two highly regarded conventional dynamics.  The conventional dynamics have less bass texture, instrument texture and definition, grained upper midrange and treble and a general digital sounding glare in the sound.  The conventional dynamics have superior detail retrieval, soundstaging imaging and dynamics.

The T50s have a tonal temperature similar to the HD650s and in opposite to the K701s.  Many will not be able to adapt to the T50s laid back and closed cup sound and disregard them as awful and congested, yet to my experiences of having heard real acoustical instruments daily in the past would not agree with those that have come to those misguided conclusions.  To me instruments sound far more realistic on the T50s than either HD650 or K701s.  A piano key sounds more like a piano one would hear if playing a piano key right in front of them.  Cymbals and hihats, although a shade muted, comes off much more convincing of the real life counterparts than the other two, same thing with guitar plucks and strums.  Vocals are in a league of its own and bass is multilayered rhythmic and tuneful, more so than the other two.

Those positives to me are are of far greater value than the better soundstage, details and open aired nature of the other two...at these price ranges, and the T50s only cost 80 bucks.  Both HD650 and K701 drivers are snails when compared to the highly agile orthdynamic drivers possesed by these T50s.  I am very surprised that these cans are not being raved about on head-fi.  They sound to me every bit more reference than either the K701 or HD650s.  What kind of reference?  With reference to the only thing that should be referenced, by real life instruments.  I used to reference hi-fi components to other hi-fi components in the start of the audio journey years ago...then one day I realised I was doing it all wrong,  I already had the best reference available to me and it was free.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhaedraCorruption 

For around the same price, would you suggest I buy W5000 drivers and use them in my AD700s or just go with a pair of T50RPs? I'm having a hard time deciding..

 

Thanks

 

There is more knowledge with the T50RP drivers than the W5000 drivers with regards to potential modifications, but don't let that stop you from becoming a pioneer in the field of W5000 driver modifications.