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Just listened to some Fostex T50RPs today... WOW! - Page 14

post #196 of 10607


I do... but it depends on the recording. With large scale orchestra or crowded soundstage, it can be very uncohesive, with a big hole in the transition from left to right. On top of that, imaging is nothing worth mentionning with the T50RP, so you end up with a pretty uncohesive and diffuse presentation of the music... It is actually a pity, because their tonal balance, tonal accuracy and transparency are impressive at this price point. I guess this is what they have been mainly designed to excel at.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

so noone agrees that this phone has a huge hole in the center? mine cannot play stereo at all, it's a dual mono phone...I should get a few brand new pairs next week, so I'll see how that goes stock but a friend of mine also told me that all he's got is 2 blobs w/ no link between them.

 


Edited by shamu144 - 10/5/10 at 2:44am
post #197 of 10607


Are you sure ?

 

I get excellent results out of my discman Sony D33, and even from a mini home stereo. I read a lot about those power hungry phones, but really can't agree with it so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpearce View Post

 

The other thing to consider is that they require a pretty beefy amp to sound their best.

post #198 of 10607

 

Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post


I do... but it depends on the recording. With large scale orchestra or crowded soundstage, it can be very uncohesive, with a big hole in the transition from left to right. On top of that, imaging is nothing worth mentionning with the T50RP, so you end up with a pretty uncohesive and diffuse presentation of the music... It is actually a pity, because their tonal balance, tonal accuracy and transparency are impressive at this price point. I guess this is what they have been mainly designed to excel at. 

 

So if even a stock pair has the same problem, I still rest my case that this phone is worthless from a non-computer source. You are *FORCED* to increase the phantom center channel volume by quite a bit to get a realistic stereo headstage(nothing to do w/ crossfeed). But once you do that, the SS becomes totally eye popping IME. Together w/ a good dampening and the angled sa5k earpads, I often have sound coming from way behind or on top of my head

 

I wouldn't recommend this phone for fast electronic music or videogames, but for slow/mid tempo music and movies from a PC this is as good as it gets for me
 

Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post

 

I read a lot about those power hungry phones, but really can't agree with it so far. 


I also don't find it power hungry at all, but at very low volume the dynamic range is really narrowed down.


Edited by leeperry - 10/5/10 at 6:48am
post #199 of 10607

Thanks for the reply, sounds like these wouldn't be for me then.

 

The reason I got rid of my MS1i was because I didn't really find them to be all I expected them to be, and also I found them really uncomfortable to wear (after around an hour I'd even go as far as saying they became painful). When I read reviews about how good they were for metal I was expecting to be blown away but when I got them they sounded kind of congested (if that's the right word... though it may just be down to me being used the the Sony V6's analytical sound) and not much of an improvement over what I'm using currently (Sony V6), the improvements were there, I especially noticed the highs were significantly less harsh than those on my V6, but they weren't the massive improvements I was lead to believe I'd hear from them. I like my V6 but the flaws become ever the more obvious and the harsh highs can really be a pain at times so I'm looking for something new.

 

Unfortunately I live in the UK so trying other Grados won't be an option because they're usually at least double the price over here (which is a shame because I heard the SR225i are supposed to be some of the best headphones for metal, especially in my price range).
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpearce View Post

None of those things would really be the T50s strengths.  With some serious modding, perhaps you'd enjoy them for those purposes, but they tend to be pretty warm headphones, and a bit rolled off on the upper end.

 

The sound leaks a little, but I'd definitely say they are more closed than open. They are vented, which means some sound will escape.  Now that mine are modded with some foam, they don't leak as much.

 

They are passable for gaming, though many dynamics have a wider soundstage which makes a huge difference for games.  The detail is nice, though, so it's neither here nor there.

 

Your big problem is going to be for metal.  People tend to like Grados for metal because they have plenty of mid-bass, have a really fast sound signature, and have that great aggressive high-end.  The T50RP is a pretty warm headphone, which means it's a lot more lush than it is aggressive, especially stock.  They have some bass, but not a ton of bass impact, the midrange is really detailed but warm, and the high end is relatively soft.  This is pretty close to the opposite of what you want for metal, especially if what you're listening to is poorly recorded or compressed.  The modding I've done on my pair have made them significantly brighter, which may help, but you could still do a lot better for that genre.  They are good for folk and ambient, though.  I see that you sold your MS1i, though.  Why did you get rid of them, and what are you listening to now?  We might be able to find something that will suit your needs and taste.

 

The other thing to consider is that they require a pretty beefy amp to sound their best.


Edited by EternalEmpire - 10/5/10 at 3:02pm
post #200 of 10607

You might want to consider the Beyerdynamic DT 150 or 250--they will probably be more musical than the V6, but are also not too warm, with plenty of bass.  I'm not sure what the Denons cost on the other side of the pond, but they might be good for you as well.

 

The other thing that I can suggest is some Kees modded Ultrasones, which would be great for the genre.

post #201 of 10607
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpearce View Post

You might want to consider the Beyerdynamic DT 150 or 250--they will probably be more musical than the V6, but are also not too warm, with plenty of bass.  I'm not sure what the Denons cost on the other side of the pond, but they might be good for you as well.

 

The other thing that I can suggest is some Kees modded Ultrasones, which would be great for the genre.


 

Denons are pretty expensive over here too, but Beyerdyanmic seem to be reasonable at least, probably still more expensive than in the US though. Coincidentally, I've been looking at both the D2000 and DT250 during my search, I couldn't find anything about how either was with metal though, but the D2000 apparently have a large soundstage (for a closed headphone) so they would be good for gaming I'd imagine.

 

I heard Ultrasones are very love/hate and I have no modding experience so I think it would be in my best interests to avoid them.

 

Thanks again.

post #202 of 10607

These were delivered to me yesterday.  They sound almost the same as the T20V2 with a little tilt in tonal balance towards the bottom end.  Kinda makes my bid of $80 dollars for the vintage T20 a bit silly, when the new T50s cost the same.  Heck they look almost the same.  I have not modded these yet but will do so.  Whatever limitations in sound that these has (a lot) is entirely cup related and not driver related.  Comparing these to the LCD2 would be like comparing PX100 to HD800.  Yes I still stand by what I said about the T20V2 and it applies to the T50RP as well - these drivers are technically more proficient than the K701/HD650 drivers - they are indeed turbo drivers, though its hard to tell with all the cup coloration occurring (strangling the sound in in every possible way - especially the top end and imaging and staging).

 

I think almost everybody in audio period is confusing the definition of driver speed.  Driver speed has very little to do with staging, imaging and treble response.

 

To illustrate this point I will use a drum ride cymbal as an example.  When one taps a cymbal with the hard plastic tip of the stick against the surface of the cymbal (hence you "ride" the cymbal) the sound that comes out is a very crisp "Ding" sound with the emphasis on the "D" part.  On every headphone below the HD800/LCD2/D7000/T1 level (that I have heard) - this sound becomes less of a "Ding" and becomes more like a "TZing"  with the "D" part coming out like a "TZ" sound.  This is because the driver is not quick enough to render the hard leading edge and softening it - hence the resultant change in sound.  This is my benchmark as a drummer to asses treble transients - I find treble transients are less affected by cup resonance as lower mid and bass transients, transients in those frequencies can be "psycho acoustically" masked by cup resonances - for which the T50 suffers terribly from, but with a little experience - it is possible to filter out the cup resonance sounds in your mind and and hear the true driver speed - or just judge the "Ding" in a ride cymbal.

 

The good news is that on the T50RP the ride cymbal does sound like a "Ding" and not a "TZing" - though it is muted amongst the cup resonances.  If one is willing to put the effort into some simple cup mods as shown by Leeperry - I have no doubt these cans will surpass the HD650/K701 many ways, with driver speed superiority granted with no mods.  The fact that there is zero hint of "grain" in these cans hint at superior driver speed, because if one listens carefully enough the HD650 and K701 contains a trace of grain in the upper registers that is non existent in the T50s - and grain is not cup resonance relate.  Lack of grain (superior midrange smoothness) is a result of superior raw driver speed.


Edited by SP Wild - 10/6/10 at 8:45am
post #203 of 10607

If there's one thing this phone has learned me, it's that there's no magic one-size-fits-all formula to headphones headstaging in movies and music. You have to calibrate the coeffs depending on your gear/brain and personal taste. The cd850 center channel is too loud to my taste now, it outshines the side channels completely.

 

I find the T50RP drivers very slow compared to the cd3k, but their mids are far thicker and natural sounding. All technologies are based on compromises, and this is no exception. Play some very fast percussive music, the T50RP drivers clearly cannot keep up to my ears.


Edited by leeperry - 10/7/10 at 1:39pm
post #204 of 10607


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View PostThe fact that there is zero hint of "grain" in these cans hint at superior driver speed, because if one listens carefully enough the HD650 and K701 contains a trace of grain in the upper registers that is non existent in the T50s - and grain is not cup resonance relate.  Lack of grain (superior midrange smoothness) is a result of superior raw driver speed.


Not too sure about you but i heared my stock t50rp grainy when amped with my friend's amp (a diy amp and i forget what it's name). I can only suspect this is cup related problems.

 

For speed, i tested my cans with piano and metal rock. I can hear every tone in piano, gitar, and drum so i guess speed is not an issue here.

post #205 of 10607
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

 

I find the T50RP drivers very slow compared to the cd3k, but their mids are far thicker and natural sounding. All technologies are based on compromises, and this is no exception. Play some very fast percussive music, the T50RP drivers clearly cannot keep up to my ears.



I'm about to buy the T50RP in the near future, but to have a context, how would you say the speed of the CD3K compares to the SA5K? I haven't heard the CD, but I was wondering how do the T50 compare to the SA5k which I know well.

post #206 of 10607

I haven't heard the sa5k...I plan on getting a sa3k(same drivers as the sa5k) anytime soon if you're patient enough. I need a fast phone w/ a reasonably loud center channel for videogames, and was told that the sa5k was even tighter/faster than the cd3k, oh my oh my!

 

I use the fastest/tightest opamps(LT1363) I could find in my DAC, these were amazing w/ DNB on the cd3k...the T50RP act as a nasty bottleneck to the LT1363 speed, they sound very laid back and don't give me the feeling to be saturating my brain w/ too many audio informations, like the cd3k did using those opamps.

 

The best word I could use to describe this phone (when properly dampened) is "organic". It doesn't sound like any dynamic phone, that's fosho.


Edited by leeperry - 10/6/10 at 10:39am
post #207 of 10607
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

I haven't heard the sa5k...I plan on getting a sa3k(same drivers as the sa5k) anytime soon if you're patient enough. I need a fast phone w/ a reasonably loud center channel for videogames, and was told that the sa5k was even tighter/faster than the cd3k, oh my oh my!

 

I use the fastest/tightest opamps(LT1363) I could find in my DAC, these were amazing w/ DNB on the cd3k...the T50RP act as a nasty bottleneck to the LT1363 speed, they sound very laid back and don't give me the feeling to be saturating my brain w/ too many audio informations, like the cd3k did using those opamps.

 

The best word I could use to describe this phone (when properly dampened) is "organic". It doesn't sound like any dynamic phone, that's fosho.



Yeah, I'm patient, particularly since my buying T50 in the near future probably means in the first quarter of 2011 . I'm planning to have an ortho rig along my dynamic, so starting with the T50 seems like a sane choice.

 

I don't know about the comparison with the CD obviously, but if I had to pick the "fastest" from the headphones I have heard, in the sub $1k range, the SA5k would be in my top 3, along probably the DT48 and the Pro900, although those three have very different presentations.

post #208 of 10607
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post


I find the T50RP drivers very slow compared to the cd3k, but their mids are far thicker and natural sounding. All technologies are based on compromises, and this is no exception. Play some very fast percussive music, the T50RP drivers clearly cannot keep up to my ears.


I have never heard the cd3k - but they'd have to be significantly faster than the HD800 to be able to declare the T50RP as "very slow" - I have yet to hear any orthodynamic driver that can be called "very slow".  I have found cup resonance, especially poor semi-closed or closed cups, to be a killer of percussion - I believe your perception of driver speed is being influenced by excessive cup resonances - these two are separate issues altogether.  Try killing off all the bass using an EQ and reassessing, like wise pump up the bass on a can you think is fast.  Bass is the largest source of resonance in poor cup designs.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cya147 View Post


 


Not too sure about you but i heared my stock t50rp grainy when amped with my friend's amp (a diy amp and i forget what it's name). I can only suspect this is cup related problems.

 

For speed, i tested my cans with piano and metal rock. I can hear every tone in piano, gitar, and drum so i guess speed is not an issue here.


Obviously source and amp can act as a bottle neck to a drivers speed (especially tube amps and cheap sources).  I have never heard cup resonance to induce "grain" though.  I carry all my speed assesments with a hi-end Bryston DAC and the Lehmann Black Cube Linear headphone amplifier.  This is an amp that headphonia feels has reamarkable clarity and speed, better than his B22.  I agree piano attack and guitar plucks along with drums are a very good test for gauging driver speed.  Wind instruments are a lesser test for driver attack.

 

Also poor driver mounting definitely hinders a drivers true speed potential - especially at the lower frequencies (all frequencies related to "warmth").  Drivers need to mounted rigidly so that the driver assembly will not be induced to vibration from the diaphragms own vibrations.


Edited by SP Wild - 10/6/10 at 12:21pm
post #209 of 10607

 

Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post


I have never heard the cd3k - but they'd have to be significantly faster than the HD800 to be able to declare the T50RP as "very slow" - I have yet to hear any orthodynamic driver that can be called "very slow".  I have found cup resonance, especially poor semi-closed or closed cups, to be a killer of percussion - I believe your perception of driver speed is being influenced by excessive cup resonances - these two are separate issues altogether.  Try killing off all the bass using an EQ and reassessing, like wise pump up the bass on a can you think is fast.  Bass is the largest source of resonance in poor cup designs.
 

 

I've polished my cups dampening to the best I could achieve, this phone just sounds astounding! an amazing 3D non-cavernous SS(the cd3k SS is cavernous as hell), a very thick and loud non-bloated bass, some amazingly natural sounding mids, and trebles that almost match my middle ear resonances perfectly and hardly need any EQ to do so.

 

Still, using my favorite fast opamps(1000 v/us), they lack speed. Your "Lehmann Black Cube Linear" is most likely using a jelly bean OPA2134 opamp. The T50RP is colored in its own "organic" way but to my ears it's completely unable to give the goods on 160BPM DNB.

 

Anyway, we all hear differently, have different gear and different expectations...and "as is" this phone is unusable to my ears due to its dim phantom center channel. That would explain the shy price tag too. With a lot of finetuning(both hardware and software), they become eye popping for low/mid tempo music and movies.


Edited by leeperry - 10/6/10 at 12:45pm
post #210 of 10607
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post




I have never heard the cd3k - but they'd have to be significantly faster than the HD800 to be able to declare the T50RP as "very slow" - I have yet to hear any orthodynamic driver that can be called "very slow".  I have found cup resonance, especially poor semi-closed or closed cups, to be a killer of percussion - I believe your perception of driver speed is being influenced by excessive cup resonances - these two are separate issues altogether.  Try killing off all the bass using an EQ and reassessing, like wise pump up the bass on a can you think is fast.  Bass is the largest source of resonance in poor cup designs.

 

 

This is an amp that headphonia feels has reamarkable clarity and speed, better than his B22.  


If the SA5k are indeed faster than the CD, then that is not the case, the HD800 is faster than the SA5k across the frequency range IME, although the frequency response of the SA5k can trick you into feeling that they are faster than what they are.

 

Also it is hard to justify that the BCL is faster than the Beta, the slew rate of the Beta is as overkill as I've seen, and more than one person has recommended it to me as great in that aspect. I take headfonia with a grain of salt, the reviews are very good but more often than not it doesn't seem to match with what I perceive.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

 

 

I've polished my cups dampening to the best I could achieve, this phone just sounds astounding! an amazing 3D non-cavernous SS(the cd3k SS is cavernous as hell), a very thick and loud non-bloated bass, some amazingly natural sounding mids, and trebles that almost match my middle ear resonances perfectly and hardly need any EQ to do so.

 

Still, using my favorite fast opamps(1000 v/us), they lack speed. Your "Lehmann Black Cube Linear" is most likely using a jelly bean OPA2134 opamp. The T50RP is colored in its own "organic" way but to my ears it's completely unable to give the goods on 160BPM DNB.

 

Anyway, we all hear differently, have different gear and different expectations...and "as is" this phone is unusable to my ears due to its dim phantom center channel. That would explain the shy price tag too. With a lot of finetuning(both hardware and software), they become eye popping for low/mid tempo music and movies.



Very interesting,  judging transient response by ear is no easy feat, it might be that SP and you are focusing on different aspects to judge. 1000 v/us seems pretty good at least in principle.

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