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USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs. M2Tech hiFace - Page 62  

post #916 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post

1. digital cables (a usb cable is a digital cable)

2 & 3. Here is what I suggest: You can start a discussion about usb cables on the sound science forum and I will continue the discussion there with you. Or, if you wait a little bit (a few weeks), I was planning to write an article on jitter and usb cables on the sound science forum.
I just don't want to start a thread specifically on jitter/digital cables while I still don't have all the data on hand to write a decent and comprehensive article.
You have measurements that show frequency differences with USB cables? (I've never even seen that for interconnects.... as in nick charles' last cable test. )
post #917 of 1712
Dont feed the troll
post #918 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
You have measurements that show frequency differences with USB cables? (I've never even seen that for interconnects.... as in nick charles' last cable test. )
upstateguy,

You do not seem to read carefully and fully all what I have taken the time to explain to you. I will repeat it one more time, hopefully for the last.

1. First, read those research papers and links I posted in the review and in these last pages.

2. I said that there were many jitter measurements of coaxial digital cables. One of them was made by Stereophile (Stereophile: A Transport of Delight: CD Transport Jitter). Even the direction of the digital cable can affect its performance.

3. I didn't say that I had jitter measurements for usb cables. However, since the usb cable acts like other digital cables when transmitting real-time data (in the usb adaptive mode), one can safely assume it is affected the same.
Stereophile has already measured jitter in usb to spdif converters (here: Stereophile: Bel Canto USB Link 24/96 USB-S/PDIF converter) and they will probably do the same for usb cables in the near future.

4. Nick Charles has limited equipment and is not measuring the right stuff. He is focusing too much on the FR/SNR/THD, and he never tests the time domain performance: impulse response, square waves, ...
So given the equipment he has in hand and the parameters he is measuring, I can safely say that he will never measure any significant difference.
His last on-going test of optical cables is pretty much the same. It is a known fact that digital cables have very different jitter measurements (a few ns), however, he doesn't have the tools to test that.
Anyway, if you taken the time to read the thread I linked to earlier, you would have read all the objections I had against his test. But apparently, once again you didn't take the time to read anything.


So, upstateguy, PLEASE let us return to the subject. I am really tired of repeating the same things to you. You seem to only pick one sentence among 100 and focus on that. If you just take the time to re-read all I have posted in the last 2 pages you will have enough data to answer any question.

Again, from now on, please let us return to the subject.
post #919 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerotohero View Post
Dont feed the troll
You are probably right. By responding to him, I am giving him attention and enabling him.

From now on, I will just ignore upstateguy's posts.
post #920 of 1712
If some people want to drag this thread, please don't.
Some of us are not interested if you believe in cables or not, please take your arguments elsewhere.
Thanks
Back on track, has anybody received any new/beta drivers for Mac from M2Tech for the hiface.
post #921 of 1712
slim.a has Marco released any more info about the new version of hiface?
post #922 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosgr63 View Post
Back on track, has anybody received any new/beta drivers for Mac from M2Tech for the hiface.
Speaking of drivers, I wonder if anyone tried the 1.03 version on Windows XP? Patu reported some bugs with the 1.03 version (with XP) so I am hesitant to upgrade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rosgr63 View Post
slim.a has Marco released any more info about the new version of hiface?
Marco doesn't seem to have officialy release any new information on a new product. I keep checking their website from time to time...
Anyway, last time I inquired about a new product, I asked Marco to send me an email whenever and if they release one. I will keep you posted as I get more info.
post #923 of 1712
USG, I mean no disrespect when I say this, but the Sound Science forums are a complete waste of time for me. I have frequented (and participated a bit in) them before because I agreed with some information through experience and academics, but I'm not out to prove that differences in cables exist or spend hours taking measurements/arguing for that purpose. In a nutshell, I joined these forums to make my music sound better, so trying to convince others of what I believe is not my goal. In that vein, I could care less about what others believe. If I hear it, I believe it.
post #924 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahrose View Post
I could care less about what others believe. If I hear it, I believe it.
Agree.
This is a hobby, we are not running labs and scientific experiments.
Some of us like slim.a (to whom I am very grateful) spend a lot of time to evaluate components we use to enjoy our hobby.
If some people don't agree with his findings that's OK, but they can't knock him back for being honest and very thorough.
post #925 of 1712
I think the arguments drag on from both sides due to a variety of factors, including partial understanding of the underlying science, and variations in specific impelementations.

Digital signals is a involved topic, I believe it is a senior year EE class that requires heavy duty mathematics such as convolution. Fortunately, a lot of the science has already been done by the designers of the devices which we enjoy, but we still can't help but wonder about some of the fundamental concepts such as jitter and how it audibly impacts our music. The difficulty lies in determining what is a relevant concern and what isn't, and a lot of it depends on specific implementation. Where as jitter is a concern for one imeplementation, it is not for another - these devices, after all, are the results of different designers using unique methods to solve a problem. When there exist products using different design techniques, people will end up disagreeing over what is or is not important for that class of products. And unfortunately for audio enthusiasts, the differences in final product performance can be subtle and the underlying differences in design can be difficult to fully uncover.

For asynchronous USB interfaces such as the E-MU 0404, it should not be succeptible to differences in USB cables as it operates an independent internal clock for the audio stream, rather than referencing the USB data frames directly or indirectly. Therefore, I would argue that any jitter at the SPDIF output of the 0404 is caused by the SPDIF output parts or circuit design. Even with the jitter, however, I would imagine a properly designed DAC that contains the proper reclocking circuitry should not have any issues at all.

And that really is the benefit of the digital medium: the ability to control and maintain signal integrity from source to destination. One can certainly implement digital signal transmission in a poor manner, resulting in a device that does not take full advantage of the digital medium. However, for hi-fi audio gear, these devices should be implemented in such a way that they correct for any errors in data and timing, and render any actual differences between transmission cables irrelevant.
post #926 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackRyan View Post
For asynchronous USB interfaces such as the E-MU 0404, .
When did the Emu 0404 get an asynchronous USB interface?
post #927 of 1712
has anybody here tested the hiFace and the other converters mentioned in this topic with the Trends Audio UD-10.1?
I'd love to have some info on it, since I'm looking for medium priced USB>AES/EBU converter.
thanks in advance
post #928 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackRyan View Post
For asynchronous USB interfaces such as the E-MU 0404, it should not be succeptible to differences in USB cables as it operates an independent internal clock for the audio stream, rather than referencing the USB data frames directly or indirectly. Therefore, I would argue that any jitter at the SPDIF output of the 0404 is caused by the SPDIF output parts or circuit design. Even with the jitter, however, I would imagine a properly designed DAC that contains the proper reclocking circuitry should not have any issues at all.
I have decided to not adress trolls anymore, but this post will give me the opportunity to explain something that I haven't addressed before.

In the wonderland/digital dream world that some people seem to be living in a device such as the EMU 0404 usb is perfect.

It has been said that emu 0404 usb is an async device. However, putting the clock on the usb device doesn't mean that they have used an error check protocol.
As I said earlier, I have generated the following test under the same conditions and using a low latency setting:
cable A: drop-outs
cable B: no drop-outs
In fact, I didn't think of the test by myself, it just happened that I realized (after upgrading the usb cable) that I could use lower latency settings without crackles and pops.
So if it were un-affected by the USB cable why would I hear differences and why would I generate a test where even a causual listener can here the drop outs/crackles and the absence of those.

My listening tests concerning the EMU 0404 usb (vs. other converters) has been confirmed by Stereophile measurements.
Stereophile measured 8ns of jitter on the emu. On the same test, the M-Audio Transit has only 2ns.

The EMU 0404 usb is far from the perfect converter that would not be affected by the usb cable.

Here are some conditions/suggestions for an async converter, to be completely independant from the usb cable.
1. It has to be galvanically isolated from the computer (not draw power from the computer)
2. It has to use good drivers that allow for error check and resending for lost data in the transmission
3. It has to use a large buffer inside in order to smooth the operation and not starve for data in case of momentary CPU spikes/overloads.


AGAIN, if you have any usefull information on how to improve the listening experience, you are welcome to post in this thread.
On the other hand, if you are just going to say that such or such is not audible, we really don't care about it.
post #929 of 1712
Thread Starter 

Purpose of this thread

Purpose of this thread 24/03/10:

Since this thread has been assaulted many times by people wanting to discuss theory of jitter, what is possible to hear and what is not I decided to write in plain words, why I started it.

The reason I started this thread was to:
1. To share my experience with the 4 usb converters I have tested in my system
2. exchange any experience that helped you improve the source: whether it is a usb converter, a digital cable, a usb cable, a media player ...

However, if your main goal is to say that:
1. jitter is not audible in most cases
2. cables do not matter
3. all subjective hearing is placebo and only DBT can prove that there is a difference
Please read the following : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/do...-forum-450574/
And in that case, I will ask you politely to not drag this thread off topic by discussing such subjects.

Such discussions are better suited for a separate thread. You can start a new one and post it in this thread. But PLEASE, do not discuss such subjects on this thread as it is not the purpose of this thread.


Note:
I have also updated my first post include this reminder. So I am asking people to limit their comments on the way a music system can be improved. Most people in this thread (and I) don't care if other people think it is impossible to hear a difference or not.
I am not against discussing scientific facts but as long as it is to tell us how to improve the playback performance. If it is only to say that is non existant or below our threshold audibility, I already know those arguments as I read many studies that say so, but I personally don't care.
post #930 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
It has been said that emu 0404 usb is an async device. ]
I think the Emu is reclocking, not asynch USB.
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Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Dedicated Source Components › USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs. M2Tech hiFace