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USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs. M2Tech hiFace - Page 61  

post #901 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
I found that my DACs with built in USB performed better with transports than they did by themselves. Now this is not scientific evidence of anything. I was simply agreeing with you on that subject.

You spin a good yarn but the only empirical evidence you can offer cannot be separated from psycho-acoustic phenomena. I remember reading nick charles' thread and think that an attempt at measurement is better than bandying about unproven theories and impressions of something you think you may have heard.

USG
So you agree with me when it suits you and you don't agree when it botters you? FYI, the jitter in a cable can be higher than the one in the transport.

I am well aware about the placebo effect. However, when my subjective findings correlate with a scientific fact that I wasn't aware of before, I say it is not placebo.
Personally, I think that people that are the most affected by placebo are people like you, who think they know the science while they don't. You a have a limited knowledge of science (jitter to be specific) and you are trying to convince yourself that any differences you hear is not relevant.

Anyway, it doesn't seem that you tried to read any of the research material I gave a link to.

If you were really objective, scientific and open-minded, you would have read and commented on the links I have provided you with.

If your sole itent is to say that usb cables are the same without providing any real interesting insight whether it is by subjective listening or based or on scientific measurements on jitter, I honestly don't see why you are posting on the subject.

It is because of people like you who don't take the time to research or to really read other people's posts that I had decide to stop posting on the subject.

So please, as the thread OP, I am asking you to do one of the following:
1. Either you provide REAL scientific insight into the differences (or lack of) between different usb cables;
2. Either you provide your own subjective exprerience on the subject;
3. Or, if it is just to say that all of that is only placebo and only due to a "psycho-acoustic phenoma", I will ask to stop posting on the subject and read the following : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/do...-forum-450574/
post #902 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
Read Lavry's posts.

DACs and amps can sound relatively similar when you cannot see which one you are listening to, not headphones.

You have convinced yourself that these effects exist and therefore they do. For the unconvinced, they do not.

USG
You seem to read only what interests you. From all I wrote to you that is what you retained and quoted?

As for Dan Lavry's posts in this thread, he stresses the importance of reducing jitter to get the best performance from a DAC.

Anyway, as I said in the previous post, I am not concerned anymore about what you think you have read, and what you think you know.

SO PLEASE:
Once again, If you find any new scientific data on usb transmission and cables, please link it to us (and not just misquote what you thought your understood).
And, If on on the other hand you just don't think that such a difference is audible, we get it ... but let us audiophools discuss about such foolish things.
post #903 of 1712
Well written Slim - it seems some people just come looking for a fight...
post #904 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahrose View Post
lol, that's one way of saying it. However, considering the fact that (most of) slim's findings on transports has been sufficiently corroborated by others here, including me, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt, atleast until we can test the claim for ourselves.

I'll admit that his choice of words probably wasn't too prudent. He likely meant "big" in the context of cable-induced differences. With that in mind, I would interpret that descriptor along the lines of "noticeable".

I'll further add that if headphone recables produce detectable differences in sound (IME), then why dismiss the possibility of such differences among USB cables?

Slim recently posted a review on the Oyaide digital cable which piqued my curiousity enough to get me to order one for myself. I'll see if slim's insights on the value of cables hold water after I get the cable. I'll reserve further judgment till then.
When I used the word "big", I should have been more precise. It was very noticeable in the context/comparison of a change of one of the elements in the source side : usb cable/usb converter/digital cable.

As for the Oyaide digital cable, many people have already tried and liked the cable. But it is like the hiface, it is transparent (doesn't add false warmth and haze) and the outcome will depend on the DAC being used. I would curious to read your findings on it. When are you going to receive it?
post #905 of 1712
Hey USG, since you are not a cable believer, why you bought those ZU cables anyway ??
It's a mistery to me
Sorry but you are fooling yourself, you don't want to believe something that can be measured and heard (i've seen you like bolds too ) and do exist.
I made a lot of blind tests, with my interconnects and power cables and without them, even my wife can distinguish if i use them or not, but using hi-face to my DAC made a big difference compared to connecting my DAC to PC throught USB or Coax-out from my PC, it easily heard by anyone i gaved to try.
Sure snake oil exists in audio business, see 25K speaker cables, i do believe a 100-200$ cable is a lot better than a 2$ cable, but the difference from a 200$ and a 20.000 $ is small/inexistent or subjective
post #906 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post

... it reminded about an old test I did with the EMU 0404 usb.
I set the asio latency settings very low (4ms if I remember correctly). And I tried to play the same 24/96 files in foobar in 2 formats: FLAC and Wav.
With the Wav file, it played back perfectly, and with the FLAC I had a lot of dropouts. That would explain why some people have claimed hearing differences between FLAC and Wav.
The reason is not the data itself, but rather the increased load on the CPU which either causes drops of data or jitter.
I think all it demonstrated was that with your unique set up, under the specific conditions you generated, you were able to hear the difference between flac and wav.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post

So you agree with me when it suits you and you don't agree when it botters you?
If your sole itent is to say that usb cables are the same without providing any real interesting insight whether it is by subjective listening or based or on scientific measurements on jitter, I honestly don't see why you are posting on the subject.


So please, as the thread OP, I am asking you to do one of the following:
1. Either you provide REAL scientific insight into the differences (or lack of) between different usb cables;
2. Either you provide your own subjective exprerience on the subject;
3. Or, if it is just to say that all of that is only placebo and only due to a "psycho-acoustic phenoma", I will ask to stop posting on the subject and read the following : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/do...-forum-450574/
I didn't agree with you, I simply reported similar findings.

I am unable to share with you my specfic experiences due to the restrictions placed on this forum and which you now attempt to hide behind.

I don't know why you bring up DBT??? I did not.

If you would care to move this discussion to the Sound Science forum many of the items you listed can be discussed openly and without restriction.

USG
post #907 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
I think all it demonstrated was that with your unique set up, under the specific conditions you generated, you were able to hear the difference between flac and wav.



I didn't agree with you, I simply reported similar findings.

I am unable to share with you my specfic experiences due to the restrictions placed on this forum and which you now attempt to hide behind.

I don't know why you bring up DBT??? I did not.

If you would care to move this discussion to the Sound Science forum many of the items you listed can be discussed openly and without restriction.

USG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarKu View Post
Hey USG, since you are not a cable believer, why you bought those ZU cables anyway ??
It's a mistery to me
Sorry but you are fooling yourself, you don't want to believe something that can be measured and heard (i've seen you like bolds too ) and do exist.
I made a lot of blind tests, with my interconnects and power cables and without them, even my wife can distinguish of i use them or not, my using hi-face to my DAC, was a bid difference, easily heard by anyone i gaved to try.
upstateguy,

First, as DarKu pointed out, you are contradicting yourself. You are questionning something that can be both heard and measured.

Second, who are you to decide that this 60 pages long thread should be moved to the sound science section?

Finally, if you are so eager to start a discussion on the subject, why don't start a thread on the sound science forum, and you can post a link here. Those who are intersted in discussing such things will post their impressions there.
post #908 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarKu View Post
Hey USG, since you are not a cable believer, why you bought those ZU cables anyway ??
It's a mistery to me
What Zu cables are you referring to?

USG
post #909 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
What Zu cables are you referring to?

USG
The ones listed in your cable inventory (on your profile) :

Cable Inventory
Dayton Glass
Dayton RCAs
Zu Oxy RCAs
Zu Pivots
Volexs
post #910 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
upstateguy,

First, as DarKu pointed out, you are contradicting yourself. You are questionning something that can be both heard and measured.

Second, who are you to decide that this 60 pages long thread should be moved to the sound science section?

Finally, if you are so eager to start a discussion on the subject, why don't start a thread on the sound science forum, and you can post a link here. Those who are intersted in discussing such things will post their impressions there.
1- What am I questioning that can be heard and measured?

2- I wasn't suggesting that the entire thread be moved, only that I would be able to continue my conversation with you in the Sound Science forum (due to the restrictions here.)

3- I have no interest in starting a discussion on jitter but I have, however, enjoyed chatting with you.
post #911 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
1- What am I questioning that can be heard and measured?

2- I wasn't suggesting that the entire thread be moved, only that I would be able to continue my conversation with you in the Sound Science forum (due to the restrictions here.)

3- I have no interest in starting a discussion on jitter but I have, however, enjoyed chatting with you.

1. digital cables (a usb cable is a digital cable)

2 & 3. Here is what I suggest: You can start a discussion about usb cables on the sound science forum and I will continue the discussion there with you. Or, if you wait a little bit (a few weeks), I was planning to write an article on jitter and usb cables on the sound science forum.
I just don't want to start a thread specifically on jitter/digital cables while I still don't have all the data on hand to write a decent and comprehensive article.
post #912 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post
3- I have no interest in starting a discussion on jitter but I have, however, enjoyed chatting with you.
That's fine. So we can go back to the topic of this thread.

Fujak
post #913 of 1712

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
I was planning to write an article on jitter and usb cables on the sound science forum.
slim.a, I appreciate this very as I appreciate your contributions to all the stuff around USB-Interfaces, cables, DACs. It has inspired me a lot. So it's time to thank you because without your sharing of your experiences and knowledge my Setup wouldn't have this quality of sound as it has now.


Fujak
post #914 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fujak View Post
slim.a, I appreciate this very as I appreciate your contributions to all the stuff around USB-Interfaces, cables, DACs. It has inspired me a lot. So it's time to thank you because without your sharing of your experiences and knowledge my Setup wouldn't have this quality of sound as it has now.


Fujak
Thanks a lot for your nice comments. I really appreciate it. I am also glad it helped you to enjoy more your system
post #915 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
The ones listed in your cable inventory (on your profile) :

Cable Inventory
Dayton Glass
Dayton RCAs
Zu Oxy RCAs
Zu Pivots
Volexs
They were quite inexpensive on ebay and I thought they might be OK cables. As it turned out, the Oxys were too stiff to use and the Pivots saw limited use with my portables:

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Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Dedicated Source Components › USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs. M2Tech hiFace