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USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs. M2Tech hiFace - Page 53  

post #781 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dszabi View Post
Re the delta-sigma vs R2R/multibit DACs:
Does anyone know which type of DAC is the Musical Fidelity X-DACV3 (DSD1792/SRC4192/3 chipset)? Thanks!
The DAC chip (DSD1792) used on the Musical Fidelity X-DACV3 is a sigma-delta one. The SRC4192 is the name of the upsampler.
post #782 of 1712
and I should add that Reclock uses a small buffer in KS/WASAPI Excl. running in realtime priority...its coder, James, is the coder behind AnyDVD so he very much knows the tricks of the trade
post #783 of 1712
Thread Starter 
leeperry,

I really don't understand what you are trying to say and imply. What you are saying lacks coherence, logic and sense to me.

Here is what makes sense to me : when choosing a usb to spdif converter (which is the topic of this thread), the best one is the one that has the lowest jitter.
The lower the jitter of a transport, the closer you get to the truth. If you don't like the sound of a known low jitter transport (let's say DCS, Esoteric, Accuphase, ...) then the culprit is not the transport but the DAC that is poorly designed.
In order to get the closer to real music, you need a low jitter transport and a transparent DAC. If you start coloring the sound from the very begining (at the transport level) you will loose details and parts of the music that cannot be recovered later in the audio chain.

So I cannot agree with when you suggest to people to use reclock with a built in sound card in a noisy mother board because you think that in your particular case it sounded smoother than something.

Anyway, I will stop arguing with you on this subject unless it is to compare different usb to spdif converters (or PCI cards). If it is just to say that reclock is better ... well don't count me in the discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
besides you're only as weak as your weakest link(again) so as you said, CS8414/DIR9001 will react differently..

and I wouldn't get too hung up on the DAC...as the opamps you're using as LPF or I/V on the DAC output will color the sound far more than switching DAC's ever would from what many ppl believe(it's also been my personal experience ): Heres some test results for the new ESI Juli@ card. [3] - RightMark Forums
Just for you information, the DAC I am currently using doesn't use a single opamp in the signal path. It is an all discrete design and the filtering after the PCM1704uk (multibit dac chips) is done in the current domain. Then the I/V and buffering are done by mean of high quality vishay resistors and transistors,...
So no I can't hear differences between opamps (they are not used) but I hear differences in the digital filters. I have also a user replaceable digital filter module: I can either use it with the HDCD capable PDM100 or the DF1704 digital filter.

Also you have to understand that the performance of the digital section is not dependant only on the type of DIR used (CS8414 vs. DIR9001). The power supply, ground traces, impedance, quality of the internal wiring, shielding, ... all of that will affect the sound. So even if you have 2 DACs using the same DIR9001+PCM1794+AD797 for example, they can sound completely different. One of them can sound harsh and the other one overly soft depending on the choices of the designer.
post #784 of 1712
Just to add fuel to the fire, maybe a few with expert ears would like to test our player against the others discussed.

[I've given away five free licenses. Sorry if anyone wanted one but didn't get one.]

Please test FLAC or APE or WAV without DSP first. 196Khz and 24bit works fine. Everything from HDTracks will play. Most high end DAC's will work.

Download here:
Media Center - J. River Media Center software

Here's a starting point on what you can find:
Audiophile Info - JRiverWiki
post #785 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
The lower the jitter of a transport, the closer you get to the truth.
says who? the audiophile gods? where can we reach them please? 1-800-UB3RJITT3R?

do you honestly think that all the records you're listening to were recorded/mixed/mastered on <10ps jitter equipment? yes?
Quote:
I cannot agree with when you suggest to people to use reclock with a built in sound card in a noisy mother board
I really don't understand what you are trying to say, and I think that you have terribly misunderstood my post...as I never said anything like this, and especially never implied that Reclock would be the final solution to anything either.
Quote:
Just for you information, the DAC I am currently using doesn't use a single opamp in the signal path. It is an all discrete design and the filtering after the PCM1704uk (multibit dac chips) is done in the current domain. Then the I/V and buffering are done by mean of high quality vishay resistors and transistors
goodie! still, all the components that are after your DAC will color the sound to a great extent...anyway
post #786 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jriver View Post
Just to add fuel to the fire, maybe a few with expert ears would like to test our player against the others discussed.

I'll provide 5 free licenses if you'll e-mail me at jimh at jriver . c o m.

Please test FLAC or APE or WAV without DSP first. 196Khz and 24bit works fine. Everything from HDTracks will play. Most high end DAC's will work.

Download here:
Media Center - J. River Media Center software

Here's a starting point on what you can find:
Audiophile Info - JRiverWiki
I am intersted by the trial offer. I just sent you an email

Edit -- Thanks Jim! I received the licence. I will install and post my impressions tomorrow
post #787 of 1712
This whole issue about jitter is very complicated and mysterious. From what I read on the forum, there are different types of jitter. Some is good and some is bad.
But I'd like to clarify that I'm not an expert at all and that I'm only sharing with you guys what I read in other forums.
post #788 of 1712
For hiFace users, we've had a report that the 141 firmware doesn't work with MC and WASAPI, but that 140 does. Marco at M2Tech knows about it.
post #789 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by jriver View Post
Just to add fuel to the fire, maybe a few with expert ears would like to test our player against the others discussed.

I'll provide 5 free licenses if you'll e-mail me at jimh at jriver . c o m.
Hi Jim,

I would like to test your player against foobar etc. and I will make a review of the results - I just sent an e-mail to you.

Kind regards
Fujak
post #790 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by punk_guy182 View Post
there are different types of jitter. Some is good and some is bad.
so it's like cholesterol in a way
post #791 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
so it's like cholesterol in a way
post #792 of 1712
you know, I've just spent the last few hours comparing different cables/interfaces/drivers...I've discovered a few things, haha

-all the cables sound WAY different
-all the interfaces sound WAY different

I'm not amused...this whole stuff looks like plain audiophoolism when you don't try it for yourself

good news is: I've found my favorite combo

but some differences I heard were far bigger than what you'd expect from opamp rolling..all those ppl who say that bit-perfect is bit-perfect
post #793 of 1712
Thread Starter 

Initial impressions on the J. River Media Center software - W/ Windows XP Media Center and Hiface

Quote:
Originally Posted by jriver View Post
Just to add fuel to the fire, maybe a few with expert ears would like to test our player against the others discussed.

[I've given away five free licenses. Sorry if anyone wanted one but didn't get one.]

Please test FLAC or APE or WAV without DSP first. 196Khz and 24bit works fine. Everything from HDTracks will play. Most high end DAC's will work.

Download here:
Media Center - J. River Media Center software

Here's a starting point on what you can find:
Audiophile Info - JRiverWiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by jriver View Post
For hiFace users, we've had a report that the 141 firmware doesn't work with MC and WASAPI, but that 140 does. Marco at M2Tech knows about it.
I installed yesterday J. River Media Center 14 on Windows XP Media Center and used the Hiface for the testing.

I did try the J River for only about 1 hour so these are only my very early impressions.

With the Hiface (v1.02 drivers), I didn't have any trouble using the J River Player. I did all my testing with asio4all and 32 bits output (no DSP).

The result was quite surprising. Being a Media Center with a lot of options and features ... I didn't honestly expect much from the J River media center from the sound quality, I was just curious to test how it sounded. Well, to my surprise, moving from Foobar v1.0 to J River media center, I got an improvement similar to when I moved from the Teralink-X to the Hiface. The change was similar in the nature of change but more subtle in the scale of change.
Overall, the sound tightened a little bit : there was a definite improvement in perceived details, there was an enhanced sense of realism and better imaging. In comparison Foobar v1.0 was more laid back and a little dustier.

I have yet to try thoroughly the upsampling in the J River Media Center. From the little listening I did, it wasn't as good as the SoX upsampler in Foobar (especially when SoX is set to 96K with Minimum Phase).
post #794 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by punk_guy182 View Post
This whole issue about jitter is very complicated and mysterious. From what I read on the forum, there are different types of jitter. Some is good and some is bad.
Jitter is never good. Some music might sound better to your ears with jitter but what we're talking about here is getting the best digital->analogue conversion, and jitter is an obstacle.

Some articles on jitter:
jitter
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6179660-post366.html (Superb post by Dan Lavry, a must read)
Stereophile: A Case of the Jitters
DIYHiFi.org &bull; View topic - Jitter
post #795 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noinimod View Post
Jitter is never good. Some music might sound better to your ears with jitter but what we're talking about here is getting the best digital->analogue conversion, and jitter is an obstacle.

Some articles on jitter:
jitter
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6179660-post366.html (Superb post by Dan Lavry, a must read)
Stereophile: A Case of the Jitters
DIYHiFi.org &bull; View topic - Jitter
I totally agree with you noinimod. It is a total nonsense to say that there is good jitter.

I think what some people must have mistaken and not fully understood is that some jitter is less harmful than others. For example, for the same amount of jitter at the source (let's say 1000ps), it is less harmful if it is mailny high frequency than if it is low frequency because PLLs and Digital receivers can reject it easier. Also for the same amount of total jitter, it has been reported by Stereophile that depending on the pattern, that jitter could be tolerable or really bad. But at no time one should pursue high jitter.

Most transports that have jitter do not do it because of psycho-acoustics studies. They have high jitter simply because of poor design an component selection. If they could produce lower jitter devices they would.

So to get the best digital to analog conversion, it is necessary to reduce jitter as low as possible (or to decorrelate/shift jitter into higher frequencies such as suggested here).

It is a false assumption that getting the best and most precise digital to analog conversion (with ultra low jitter) will give an unpleasant listening experience. The goal of DA converter it to be transparent and to reproduce live music as accurately as possible. Live music doesn't have jitter and is pleasing to listen to.
Some people have limited experience with real high quality DACs and make the assumption that the more precise and detailed a DAC get, the more boring and hifi-ish it gets. This is totally false as low jitter and transparent DAC juts give an open representation to the music. If there was warmth in the music, then the low jitter and transparent DAC will reveal it. If there was smoothness, it will reveal it. Of course if the recording is poor, it will also reveal it. However, I would rather listen to a poor recording with a true transparent DAC (not a bright one) than through a "warm" a muddy one."

Overall I think that some people mistake low jitter with the low THD of some amplifiers that use heavy negative feedback to achieve those low distortions. While those amps have a lower THD, they have increase Time intermodulation distortion.
However, jitter is another matter. Low jitter is the sign of a good design and good power supply. High jitter is the sign of a poor design a poor supply and choice of components.

So indeed, THERE IS NO GOOD JITTER. Leeperry might have tried to misguide people into thinking there is some kind of good jitter but any self respected engineer or any credible reviewer will tell you otherwise.

I hope this post will close the debate on the so called "good jitter". Any comment made by respected engineers such as Dan Lavry or Steve Nugent would be welcome.
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Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Dedicated Source Components › USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs. M2Tech hiFace