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USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs. M2Tech hiFace - Page 23  

post #331 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by gevorg View Post
Sorry, I stopped reading after you mentioned Amarra. And you did not show any proof or at least solid explanation that software jitter exists.
I could be wrong, but I don't recall anyone saying that "software jitter" exists. As far as I know such a thing is impossible, unless you count errors in timing data on a CD (look up how CDs work). The one thing I DO know about Amarra is it (apparently, as you have to select it in the settings) uses the Mac's input clock for timing of the output. That's hardware, not software.
post #332 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
I could be wrong, but I don't recall anyone saying that "software jitter" exists. As far as I know such a thing is impossible, unless you count errors in timing data on a CD (look up how CDs work). The one thing I DO know about Amarra is it (apparently, as you have to select it in the settings) uses the Mac's input clock for timing of the output. That's hardware, not software.
See Steve's reply in post #316. This topic has also came up in other threads/forums, hence why I asked Dan about it.
post #333 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarplayer View Post
My pleasure. E-mail me for a couple quick suggestions of how to optimize a couple aspects of the Mac that is dedicated to music playback.

24/96 files are addictive, be careful.

Peace,

Lee
Lee, could I also benefit from your suggestions please?
post #334 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Lavry View Post
I hope my post provides basic enough information to understand that jitter is not just one more made up stuff such as the "need to keep a minimum cable length".

And while direct measurements of jitter are costly and require much expertise, the IMPACT of jitter in terms of distortions and noise is measurable with a good audio test system. The key is to decide what kind of distortion, and at what level the ear is impacted. Clearly, if I suddenly stopped you CD player for an hour and then restarted it, you would notice such huge timing error. That is very extreme. Can you hear a 1psec slow down? 100psec?

The science is there, and it is very solid and real. For audio the question is the impact of jitter on the ear. For instrumentation and medical the question may be “how accurate is the result”. For video, it may be about fuzzy picture, distortions coloration…

One can look at some "pictures" and explanations in my 1997 paper "On Jitter":

http://www.lavryengineering.com/white_papers/jitter.pdf

I may be deviating from the subject of the thread again. I will take some time to answer off topic question and comments addressed to on the Lavry Forum here at head-fi.

Regards
Dan Lavry
Lavry Engineering
Dan, thanks fot the time you have taken to explain things.
Your post and your white paper should convince any sensible person that jitter exists and is measurable and it is not something that was "invented" by audio companies to fool audiophiles.
Your white paper is most interesting as you have measured the effect of both random and non-random jitter, and if I understood correctly your paper, random jitter is less harmful than non random jitter.
I hope that from now on, we have enough data so that everybody can make up their minds.


For those who still don't believe that jitter has an audible impact on our playback systems (I am referring to gevorg and nick_charles), I get their point but please let other people express their experience about how different media players and usb to spdif converters sound in their system without being reminded every few hours that this is snake oil.

If someone has found that Amarra on Mac or Foobar in PC for instance has improved their listening experience, they should be able to express themselves without having to explain themselves.

While Dan Lavry (and others) have given us background information about jitter theory, this is not the sound science forum, and I hope people can stop posting about the fact that according to them no DBT test has proven what other people can hear.

Please read the following post before making new posts : Do not discuss DBT in this or any other forums except the Sound Science forum.
post #335 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
It is sad that the AES paper that people refer to about jitter being inaudible uses a random jitter to prove their points.
I hope that from now on, we have enough data so that everybody can make up their minds.
Er, you have it wrong again ! Benjamin and Gannon (AES paper) used correlated jitter (the worst kind) at different frequencies (2k, 5K and 17K) and thus had lower thresholds ~ 20ns while it was Ashihara et al "Detection threshold for distortions due to jitter on digital audio" (Acoust. Sci. & Tech. 26, 1 (2005) not AES) who used random jitter the far less noticeable sort and found the ~250ns thresholds. Please get your facts right !

You can buy the AES paper for $20 or $5 if you join the AES. If you are a student you can get cheap membership...It is definitely worth reading.


The Acoust. Sci. & Tech. paper is available on the web free.

If you mean the KIRYU AND ASHIHARA paper they do not report listening tests apart from 1 sentence in their abstract where they refer to early tests but the results are only posted in subsequent Acoust. Sci. & Tech and JAS papers.

As for implication that B and G had an agenda "uses a random jitter to prove their points" - did you really mean this as it reads ?. If so please read the 3rd paragraph from B and G's Introduction and then look up the meaning of libel.
post #336 of 1712
slim.a do you know if the hiFace will run on a Mac without a custom driver?
post #337 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosgr63 View Post
slim.a do you know if the hiFace will run on a Mac without a custom driver?
Marco from m2tech is still developping the new driver. They should get it out soon I think.
post #338 of 1712
Thread Starter 
By the way, do we have a list of usb to spdif converters that work on mac ? It seems the choice is more limited for mac users.
I know that there are drivers for the emu 0404 usb in the download section.
post #339 of 1712
Also the Onkyo ND-S1 doesn't need any Mac drivers for the USB to Coaxial or Optical conversion.
post #340 of 1712
Thread Starter 
It seems that the stello U2 doesn't need mac drivers neither according to the very positive 6moons review (link here 6moons audio reviews: April Music U2).
That unit looks very intersting and I am wondering if it is worth trying ...
post #341 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarplayer View Post
My pleasure. E-mail me for a couple quick suggestions of how to optimize a couple aspects of the Mac that is dedicated to music playback.

24/96 files are addictive, be careful.

Peace,

Lee
Lee,
your suggestions would be most welcome.
thanks in advance
André
post #342 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
It seems that the stello U2 doesn't need mac drivers neither according to the very positive 6moons review (link here 6moons audio reviews: April Music U2).
That unit looks very intersting and I am wondering if it is worth trying ...
I think it's well worth the try. It also has an I2S output.
post #343 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reverendo View Post
Lee,
your suggestions would be most welcome.
thanks in advance
André
I agree, Lee and Steve N. advices on computer playback would be most welcome for people using a computer as a source.
post #344 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
It seems that the stello U2 doesn't need mac drivers neither according to the very positive 6moons review (link here 6moons audio reviews: April Music U2).
That unit looks very intersting and I am wondering if it is worth trying ...
It uses Tenor TE7022L like Audiotrack and isonchronous (adaptive) transfer mode.
Has anyone tried/ have an opinion of the April Music Stello U2 Usb-spdif converter? | Computer Audiophile

Internals are not that impressive, btw



And you can peek inside hiFace here, need to register
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...hz-asynch.html
post #345 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_WOT View Post
It uses Tenor TE7022L like Audiotrack and isonchronous (adaptive) transfer mode.
Has anyone tried/ have an opinion of the April Music Stello U2 Usb-spdif converter? | Computer Audiophile

Internals are not that impressive, btw



And you can peek inside hiFace here, need to register
M2TECH Hiface USB->SPDIF 24/192Khz asynch - diyAudio
Thanks for the info and digging up pictures of the internals, I couldn't find them in the review. It seems that the Audiotrak uses a similar tenor chip (as you indicated) and it also seems to use better parts inside (http://cgi.ebay.ph/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=110425837482) as far as I can see/read in the description posted on ebay.
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