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USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs.... - Page 21  

post #301 of 1712
I have to say that this thread would be helpful with visual measurements from various things, as it's hard to visualise some of this stuff.
post #302 of 1712
I just got the Teralink-X from Jan-Jaap.
Make it sing music in less than a minute.
Really makes a difference. Mids opened up the most.
In movies - Better ambience and imaging, bass more defined.
post #303 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
I have to say that this thread would be helpful with visual measurements from various things, as it's hard to visualise some of this stuff.

You won't see any actual data or actual measurents because jitter theories are pseudo-science not empirical.
post #304 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post
You won't see any actual data or actual measurents because jitter theories are pseudo-science not empirical.
regal, this is absolutely not true for many reasons.

You can find many various actual measurements of jitter either for transports, digital cables or DACs (at the analog level).
You can either do google searches or go to stereophile.com site and look for any recent test of digital gear which would include jitter measurements.
Here is one of the many articles about transport jitter.

However, those test are useless without the right interpretation. As Dan Lavry pointed out, we should not look at the total weighted jitter (as it is the case in these tests) but look more precisely to the "spread" frequency of the jitter.
This indeed explains why reviewers have found differences in sounds in transports that have the "same measured" jitter.

Therefore, it should not be treated as "pseudo-science" just because everybody doesn't fully understand the theory behind it and how to correlate a measurement with what we hear. If that were the case, there would be no need for enginnering studies and all companies would make the same great digital gear.

By the way, I have also picked up 2 other things from what Dan Lavry has posted here which are worth reminding.
Besides the cable, jitter in a DAC is also affected by the power supply, clocking layout of the pcb, ... (I am simplifying here).
Also, jitter is not the only parameter affecting the sound of a dac.
So, regal, this is the same as you have been saying : that power supply and choice of components are what matter most in a DAC. But by improving the power supply and pcb layout your automatically improving the jitter performance of the unit. If you look at audio-g's page of the dac-9mk3 (that I know you are interested in ) you can see that Kingwa wrote the same thing about jitter in his dac.

So really, I don't understand why would someone call it "pseudo-science"?
post #305 of 1712
Finally my HiFace is shipping. When I receive it I can compare it to ESI Juli@, M-Audio Audiophile 192 and ESI Maya44 (if someone's interested). I haven't heard that much if any differences between these three so I hope HiFace brings something new in the mix.
post #306 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patu View Post
Finally my HiFace is shipping. When I receive it I can compare it to ESI Juli@, M-Audio Audiophile 192 and ESI Maya44 (if someone's interested). I haven't heard that much if any differences between these three so I hope HiFace brings something new in the mix.
I am very interested in your findings, it would be a great comparison : usb to spdif (hiface) vs. internal pci cards.
Keep us posted.
post #307 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
So really, I don't understand why would someone call it "pseudo-science"?


Its pseudo-science because the DAC developers who come up with the jitter reducing schemes don't have any reliable way to measure the jitter. ASTM doesn't have a test method for jitter in digital audio, until it does it is just marketing and black art stuff. Not saying its meaningless just saying its definately not an empirical science, yet.

Think about it this way, measuring Jitter is of the same order of magnitude as measuring the speed of light. It takes highly calibrated equipment with standards to make this credible.

There are a lot of indirect methods of measuring jitter but they require a leap of faith that hasn't been accepted anywhere in the literature.
post #308 of 1712
My Hiface has also been sent (ordered October 11th) and that long with some HF-2's from Prague should make next week interesting!
post #309 of 1712
Patu and hawkhead I'm awaiting for your impressions compared to others USB so SPDIF converters, if it rocks I will get one too
post #310 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim.a View Post
This indeed explains why reviewers have found differences in sounds in transports that have the "same measured" jitter.
Well, that might be true if these reviews were conducted under anything like controlled conditions but you and I both know that this is just not the case.

Until someone actually does good measurements and careful listening tests to show what the thresholds are for such different jitter patterns all the we need ultra low jitter talk is just speculation and not a basis for rational choice between components.

The funny thing is that there are several manufactuers who could do this, who could create ultra-low jitter circuits and then inject varying amounts of jitter to determine where the thresholds lie, but they will not do this, why perhaps because they might not like the answer, but that is speculation in my part
post #311 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarKu View Post
Patu and hawkhead I'm awaiting for your impressions compared to others USB so SPDIF converters, if it rocks I will get one too
It seems that m2tech has solved their shortage issue and that many people are getting their ordered hiface. It would be nice indeed to have more impressions on that unit.
post #312 of 1712
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yossi126 View Post
I just got the Teralink-X from Jan-Jaap.
Make it sing music in less than a minute.
Really makes a difference. Mids opened up the most.
In movies - Better ambience and imaging, bass more defined.
yossi126,
Thanks for your impressions on the Teralink-x. Out of curiousity, what dac are you using it with ? Did you compare it to another usb to spdif converter or to the usb input of your dac (if it has one)?
post #313 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
When I am reasonably sure it is stable I will do some A/B with the HDTV.

So far it sounds great.
Still getting the occaisional blips , not very often but enough to be a nuisance - well it was cheap and between the blips it does work nicely but it isnt the rock solid stable I was hoping for.. shrug - back to the WD HDTV it is...
post #314 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by regal View Post
Its pseudo-science because the DAC developers who come up with the jitter reducing schemes don't have any reliable way to measure the jitter. ASTM doesn't have a test method for jitter in digital audio, until it does it is just marketing and black art stuff. Not saying its meaningless just saying its definately not an empirical science, yet.

Think about it this way, measuring Jitter is of the same order of magnitude as measuring the speed of light. It takes highly calibrated equipment with standards to make this credible.

There are a lot of indirect methods of measuring jitter but they require a leap of faith that hasn't been accepted anywhere in the literature.
There are a couple of ways to measure jitter, but a single number such as RMS jitter is insufficient to characterize jitter IME. There must be at least one amplitude versus frequency plot if jitter is measured at the analog outputs of a DAC. The measurements offered by Audio Precision using standardized jitter stimulus are a good start. This is what Stereophile publishes.

I have experience with a number of oscillators. Several of them that I use have the same jitter RMS amplitude spec, but each sounds different when installed in the same equipment.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
post #315 of 1712
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
Do you mean CQ VHF ? - do you happen to know the Volume/Issue, some back issues are online.
Sorry, it was UHF magazine, not VHF.

I have misplaced the issue, so I asked the editor again. I'll let you know when I know. Hopefully, it's in these back issues:

The UHF Reading Room

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
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Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Dedicated Source Components › USB to SPDIF converters shoot-out : EMU 0404 USB vs. Musiland Monitor 01 USD vs. Teralink-x vs. M2Tech hiFace