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Upgrading my front Mordaunt Short 302s... Wasting my time? - Page 3

post #31 of 68
Then you'll need to buy a new av rack ;-) Also a new higher powered av amp may get quite hot in that cabinet. And being the 905i may get in the way of the plasma stand so want to wall mount it. But that means it's about 1' further away so want a bigger TV. ah sod it get 6090 ;-)
post #32 of 68
Thread Starter 
LOL!

The cabinate space for the center speaker is 161mm (high)... The 905 is 165mm... Grrr...
post #33 of 68
And I bet if you place it in front of the TV the bottom of the TV screen is blocked. I had that problem myself had to buy a dedicated plasma standard. £300 for that alone.
post #34 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriverdude View Post
And I bet if you place it in front of the TV the bottom of the TV screen is blocked. I had that problem myself had to buy a dedicated plasma standard. £300 for that alone.
No, the TV stand is in the way

So, assuming it's not worth the risk of the 902i's because:-
a) They are rear ported, and it will be a tight fit on the bookshelves.
b) If I need to upgrade the center speaker, the matching 905 won't match...

Is there an obvious alternative for the front pair with something of a similar size, not rear ported, and that has a matching center speaker 160mm or less in height?

That or am I really just wasting my time and/or risking upsetting an already happy audio system here?
post #35 of 68
Rear ported speakers placed near the wall and in a bookshelf will sound horrible -you shouldn't block the airflow around the port. And it'll just sound a bloaty mess.

Upgrading center is natural progression getting a higher quality home theatre. Everyone I know into home theatre has upgraded center as they upgraded mains. They did not keep there first center budget speaker when they purchased higher quality stereo speakers (and indeed once moving to av pre-power rather than av amp)

Upgrading is not wasting your time, and you will enjoy higher quality system, every time I watch a movie it puts a huge grin on my face, but it does seem on a really tight budget. Perhaps buy something to aid ease of use maybe a universal learning remote?
post #36 of 68
This just goes back to bad placement of speakers. You are limiting your sound because of your spacing issues. I'm sure if you rearrange your furniture (free) then you might be able to look at more options.
post #37 of 68
Yeah, and stop trolling people who are trying to help you. iriverdude usually trolls pretty hard, but you seem to surpass even him. People give you advice and all you keep saying is "LOL!" As everyone has said before, you can spend thousands of pounds on new speakers and they'll still sound terrible because of your horrid placement.
post #38 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by sochee View Post
Yeah, and stop trolling people who are trying to help you. iriverdude usually trolls pretty hard, but you seem to surpass even him. People give you advice and all you keep saying is "LOL!" As everyone has said before, you can spend thousands of pounds on new speakers and they'll still sound terrible because of your horrid placement.
I have to agree with this. Speaker placement is everything. After all, the way sound travels is affected by everything around it. Take your hands, cup them, put them around your mouth and say something. Your voice has changed and the sound is more directional. If you put speakers into a cubby, the sound changes again. Sound travels outward like a wave. (think of what happens when you drop a rock into a puddle, it travels outward in every direction). Think of what happens when you put the speaker into a cabinet, the sound waves travel sideways and get diffracted by the edges of the speaker itself, and by your bookshelf cabinet. You are changing the effective baffle area as well depending on your placement. Porting relies on airflow to allow the speaker to resonate at a certain frequency thus increasing bass response. When you put a ported speaker inside another enclosure, you are effectively changing the airflow and/or getting boundary enforcement as well which will throw off that naturally tuned bass the speaker maker intended.

I think people here have given you a lot of good advice....don't always diss what you don't understand.
post #39 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdriver View Post
Take your hands, cup them, put them around your mouth and say something. Your voice has changed and the sound is more directional. If you put speakers into a cubby, the sound changes again. Sound travels outward like a wave. (think of what happens when you drop a rock into a puddle, it travels outward in every direction). Think of what happens when you put the speaker into a cabinet, the sound waves travel sideways and get diffracted by the edges of the speaker itself, and by your bookshelf cabinet. You are changing the effective baffle area as well depending on your placement. Porting relies on airflow to allow the speaker to resonate at a certain frequency thus increasing bass response. When you put a ported speaker inside another enclosure, you are effectively changing the airflow and/or getting boundary enforcement as well which will throw off that naturally tuned bass the speaker maker intended..
Yes, it does indeed sound like rear ported speakers in a confined space, or up against something (at the rear) is a bad idea.

That said, your initial commment (if we're not talking about ported speakers) in a confined space does come across as a little bit voodoo. If you're talking about the location of my exiting center or right speaker, these two speakers are sealed so (I'd imagine) the sound mostly eminates out of the front, from the speakers themselves. So I find it hard to see how placing my center and right speaker in their current locations could really affect their sound? There is no surface beyond the speakers themselves, only to the sides...

And indeed time spent moving the speakers around and even placing them on stands seems (in my case) to verify no real difference in sound.

To use your analogy... Say something to someone infront of you... Now put your hands either side of your face, about 1cm away from your cheeks, and not in anyway infront of your mouth... Now say something... Sounds the same...


There is absolutely no intent to be argumentative or anything of the sort here, but in a lot of areas you tend to find people can get carried away with the theory, rather than the practicality. And I'm a fairly logical guy to I need to see and understand why something works or has an effect to believe it...

Case(s) in hand:-

1) A rear ported speaker in an enclosed space.
If there is sound emitted from the port (I believe there is?) then obviously covering it, smuthering it, is going to affect things. Makes absolute sense.

2) - Your speakers must be at the same height. 5" will affect things.
Now, if you're in laboratory conditions, with high end equipment, I can imagine you might be able to detect this. But in a conventional room, with irregular wall, furniture, where you don't sit in a single chair in the middle of the room, I cannot see the logic in it at all...

In my particular case (with low end equipment) I can detect no difference when moving speakers up and down by say half a foot. Do an experiment at home. Stand a reasonable distance from your speakers and move your head up and down 6"... Is the sound different?

Furthermore, in many setups, you won't be listening from the exact center, and at the exact height of the speakers. As such, depending upon your position, the relative height (angle) to the speaker will vary. From one position, the left speaker may be at a far different vertical angle than the right for example.

So unless, we're talking about perfectly setup home theatres, it is a completely unrealistic/unecessary requirement IMHO.



Again, there is no attempt to cause arguments etc here... More a healthy questioning/reasoning really.

And indeed, it's clear that if I contemplate upgrading my front stereo speakers, I risk my center speaker sounding 'out of place'. And in the case of the MS 902i's the matching MS 905 will not (quite) fit where I want it.

But the question still sort of stands, if I were to put 902i's and a 905 on my system (ignoring space and location) would it sound better? Or is my amp at its 'sound quality limit' with the existing speakers, so putting on better speakers will not improve sound at all - This I have no experience or knowledge of, hence my OP I guess...
post #40 of 68
If you can't hear the difference between different placements of speakers, I'd say there's no point getting new ones.
post #41 of 68
Quote:
If you're talking about the location of my exiting center or right speaker, these two speakers are sealed so (I'd imagine) the sound mostly eminates out of the front, from the speakers themselves. So I find it hard to see how placing my center and right speaker in their current locations could really affect their sound? There is no surface beyond the speakers themselves, only to the sides...
It will. Perhaps because your speakers are so bass light you're not hearing what it does to the sound. I put my center (2 x 6.5" driver and treble) like you've got yours and moved it within a couple of days. Boxy, hollow and boomy sound. It's front ported.
post #42 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sochee View Post
If you can't hear the difference between different placements of speakers, I'd say there's no point getting new ones.
Another unquantified 'voodoo' statement... Seriously, what does that ^^^ achieve?

If I move my speakers 6ft, yes I can hear the difference... If I move them 6" I can't.

Tell you what, for a laugh, let's both put £1000 on the table. You come around my house, sit or stand (your choice) in the middle of my louge and I'll happily move my speakers up and down 6" inches all day long... And if you can tell the difference you get the dosh... If you can't then I get it...
post #43 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriverdude View Post
It will. Perhaps because your speakers are so bass light you're not hearing what it does to the sound. I put my center (2 x 6.5" driver and treble) like you've got yours and moved it within a couple of days. Boxy, hollow and boomy sound. It's front ported.
Very likely... I think the speaker package as a whole is aimed at the woofer picking up the slack in the other speakers' bass... I think they all cut off at about 100hz?

If getting a new pair of front LR speakers, if their location proved to be a problem, then I'd address that. ie: If sitting one in/on my shelves was clearly causing a problem, I'd look into moving it out.

The center speak though, I would just have to live with that in that position.

note: I don't really tend to have the volume on particularly loud, so the bass from the speakers may not be so much of an issue regarding their placement causing 'booming'...


But the basic black and white question is, will improved/better front LR (& possibly center) speakers improve my sound clarity. Or is amp as clear/good as it's going to get with these small little MS speakers?
post #44 of 68
don't bother upgrading IMO.
post #45 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdriver View Post
don't bother upgrading IMO.
So you recon - ignoring speaker placement - if I put say MS 900s across my front, I'd not notice an improvement? OK.. Shame
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