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Is it worth using nice wire for the ground channel? - Page 3

post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
I edited my post; please explain why then that if there is a signal that originates from a point a ground and signal wire but they get split up and then arrive at the destination from opposite directions; is there still a signal 'between the conductors'??
I'm sorry, but even though I've read what you wrote several times, I still have absolutely no idea just what it is you're trying to describe here.

Can you try again?

k
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by digger945 View Post
^Do you subscribe to electron flow or conventional flow?
Neither. I mooch back issues from my friend.

k
post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
I'm sorry, but even though I've read what you wrote several times, I still have absolutely no idea just what it is you're trying to describe here.

Can you try again?

k
well; say you have a device; lets say an MP3 player with a cable connecting to an amp; after the pair of wires leave the connector, you have them split up as in you pull them apart and even go as far as to solder the wires on the other end on the terminals perpendicular to the terminals (no barrel); so the 'cable' now consists of 2 totally separate wires (mono for this case) which have no 'in between' and arrive from opposing directions. you will still get a signal, where is this signal??
post #34 of 53
anyway, i'm off to go solder some silver ground wires on a copper cable
post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
well; say you have a device; lets say an MP3 player with a cable connecting to an amp; after the pair of wires leave the connector, you have them split up as in you pull them apart and even go as far as to solder the wires on the other end on the terminals perpendicular to the terminals (no barrel); so the 'cable' now consists of 2 totally separate wires (mono for this case) which have no 'in between' and arrive from opposing directions. you will still get a signal, where is this signal??
The signal's still what it was before. The electromagnetic field which exists between the two conductors.

Nothing's changed except now you have a cable with a lot less capacitance and a lot more inductance.

k
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
The signal's still what it was before. The electromagnetic field which exists between the two conductors.

Nothing's changed except now you have a cable with a lot less capacitance and a lot more inductance.

k
So if I were to make a mini to mini leaving out the ground, it would sound the same as one with a ground wire?

And how would the capacitance change? Isn't the capacitance of a cable (Freely hanging in air) dependent on the dielectric material around the wire?
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdupiano View Post
So if I were to make a mini to mini leaving out the ground, it would sound the same as one with a ground wire?
Why would you want to do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdupiano View Post
And how would the capacitance change? Isn't the capacitance of a cable (Freely hanging in air) dependent on the dielectric material around the wire?
No, it is mostly determined by the geometry of the conductors.
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdupiano View Post
So if I were to make a mini to mini leaving out the ground, it would sound the same as one with a ground wire?
No.

You'd get a bunch of hum, buzz and all sorts of other nasties.

Quote:
And how would the capacitance change? Isn't the capacitance of a cable (Freely hanging in air) dependent on the dielectric material around the wire?
The dielectric material is only one factor. The others are the area of the "plates" (in this case the wires) and the distance between them. All else remaining equal, as you increase the distance between the "plates," the lower the capacitance.

So if you take a cable with two closely spaced conductors, and then separate those conductors increasing the distance between them, the cable's capacitance will go down while the inductance goes up (by virtue of increasing the loop area).

k
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by murrays View Post
Why would you want to do that?
Well you said the signal would be the same


Quote:
No, it is mostly determined by the geometry of the conductors.
If its the conductor, how does the capacitance change then in Qusp's example? When the conductor isn't changed at all?
post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdupiano View Post
Well you said the signal would be the same
Who said anything about the signal being the same using just ONE conductor?

Quote:
If its the conductor, how does the capacitance change then in Qusp's example? When the conductor isn't changed at all?
What changes is the distance between conductors.

k
post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
No.

You'd get a bunch of hum, buzz and all sorts of other nasties.



The dielectric material is only one factor. The others are the area of the "plates" (in this case the wires) and the distance between them. All else remaining equal, as you increase the distance between the "plates," the lower the capacitance.

So if you take a cable with two closely spaced conductors, and then separate those conductors increasing the distance between them, the cable's capacitance will go down while the inductance goes up (by virtue of increasing the loop area).

k
If I get a bunch of hum and buzz.. the signal's not the same right?

Capacitance in a wire isn't based on "Plates" and while I do understand you are stating one wire is a plate and the other is the opposite plate.. that's not correct. If it was then a single strand of wire would never have capacitance right? I could have sworn single stranded wires are characterized with particular capacitance ratings (neglecting the effect of a nearby wire).
post #42 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdupiano View Post
If I get a bunch of hum and buzz.. the signal's not the same right?
I don't recall saying anything about the signal being the same if you're just using ONE wire.

Quote:
Capacitance in a wire isn't based on "Plates" and while I do understand you are stating one wire is a plate and the other is the opposite plate.. that's not correct.
Please, take my advice and just stop, right now. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about here. None.

Quote:
If it was then a single strand of wire would never have capacitance right? I could have sworn single stranded wires are characterized with particular capacitance ratings (neglecting the effect of a nearby wire).
Great. Then let's see an example of this.

k
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
I don't recall saying anything about the signal being the same if you're just using ONE wire.



Please, take my advice and just stop, right now. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about here. None.



Great. Then let's see an example of this.

k
While thinking about the example I was thinking about a coax cable, but then I remembered that it is shielded so that would be different from qusp's example. So I was definitely thinking about the wrong thing while reading his example but if you do have two wires and for arguments sake have them both teflon insulated and separated say a 2 inches from one another, you wouldnt have any parasitic capacitance due to the other wire. Actually its pretty odd thinking of regular single wires and capacitance, when I think capacitance and induction Its usually with coaxial cables because of the electromagnetic interaction between the signal and ground. The only time I could see wires having capacitance would be if they were twisted or very close to one another, otherwise, the electric fields are not powerful enough to do anything against air.

Looking at cables I've worked with, capacitance ratings are only given to wires that come in twisted pairs or coaxial in nature (some form of signal + ground/shield). So to describe or attribute capacitance to Qusp's example (should I understand it now) is a mistake. Wouldn't the two wires be independent from one another? And if they never have this "polarization" of charges, you can't store any energy in between can you? Could there ever be a potential difference between the two? Between the ground and signal, yes, I think capacitance could exist, particularly since there would be this charge polarization and potential difference between the two.
post #44 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdupiano View Post
While thinking about the example I was thinking about a coax cable, but then I remembered that it is shielded so that would be different from qusp's example. So I was definitely thinking about the wrong thing while reading his example but if you do have two wires and for arguments sake have them both teflon insulated and separated say a 2 inches from one another, you wouldnt have any parasitic capacitance due to the other wire.
Of course you would have parasitic capacitance. It's just that it would be much less given the 2 inch spacing of the wires compared to if they were much closer to each other.

Quote:
Actually its pretty odd thinking of regular single wires and capacitance, when I think capacitance and induction Its usually with coaxial cables because of the electromagnetic interaction between the signal and ground. The only time I could see wires having capacitance would be if they were twisted or very close to one another, otherwise, the electric fields are not powerful enough to do anything against air.
Electric fields (as well as magnetic fields) propagate freely through air. If they didn't, we wouldn't have radio.

Quote:
Looking at cables I've worked with, capacitance ratings are only given to wires that come in twisted pairs or coaxial in nature (some form of signal + ground/shield). So to describe or attribute capacitance to Qusp's example (should I understand it now) is a mistake. Wouldn't the two wires be independent from one another?
No, they wouldn't be independent from one another.

k
post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
Of course you would have parasitic capacitance. It's just that it would be much less given the 2 inch spacing of the wires compared to if they were much closer to each other.


Electric fields (as well as magnetic fields) propagate freely through air. If they didn't, we wouldn't have radio.



No, they wouldn't be independent from one another.

k
How is the left and right signal not independent from one another? As far as the propagation of the electromagnetic field, I was referring to the amount of energy require to propagate through air, I'm quite certain there are very big differences between the emf released by a radio station and an mp3 player through its hp out. If the signals are independent, there would be no charge polarization and thus no capacitance, but if they are connected it would be different.

So I would argue that the ground wire matters in this respect. since the ground wire would result in parasitic capacitance between signal wire and the ground. And as we all know capacitance cuts off frequencies.
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