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Capacitor burn in, how long does it really take? - Page 2

post #16 of 51
8/30/09 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
Anyone who tells you that the dielectric in a film or similar type cap needs "forming" is talking out of their ass.k
It is quite obvious that you didnt learn manners in school or at home.
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post #17 of 51
8/30/09 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjf View Post
It is quite obvious that you didnt learn manners in school or at home.
Sure I did.

I just wasn't raised by a bunch of uptight, puritanical prudes, that's all.

k
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post #18 of 51
8/30/09 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
What is there to be said?
You mean other than to say they're not being made anymore?

I just meant to say that they are a very good cap, and that not everything in the piece was marketing drivel.

k
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post #19 of 51
8/30/09 at 12:35pm
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/au...-fuses-419939/

Does this also need "burn in"
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post #20 of 51
8/30/09 at 12:42pm

Just remembered they mentioned a running time for the Black Gate caps. when I was researching an amp purchase.

 

 

From Black Gate site:

"The Idling Process
If a Black Gate capacitor mounted on an electronic device is actuated, a signal current flows into it and the electrodes are gradually activated, reducing non-linear distortion and phase distortion substantially while improving the efficiency of power transfer efficiency. The time required for this process varies widely with the capacity, voltage and signal level a total of about 30 hours is the standard level. Once this process of idling is completed. The effect continues as long as the capacitor Is kept at the same place and the operating environment does not undergo a substantial change The effect of idling has been proved with all types of electronic equipment - analogue, digital, high-frequency and other devices. It must be noted that idling is different from ageing, which applies a direct current voltage without giving signals."

 

My comments:

Seems the electrodes are activated over time until fully conditioned for conductivity. Once started, the activation time to completion of this "curing" process is about 30 hours. The effect continues so long as it is left on. Once the power is off, the electrodes revert back to it's original state.

 

This is different from the initial burn in. The initial time it took until consistent performance was about three weeks of 24/7 use.


Edited by Happy Camper - 9/11/10 at 1:18pm
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post #21 of 51
8/30/09 at 1:44pm
When they pop.


I think it's safe to say that that cap is fully burned in, as well as several around it.
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post #22 of 51
8/30/09 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomasdf View Post
When they pop.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._capacitor.jpg
I think it's safe to say that that cap is fully burned in, as well as several around it.
You can't stop
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post #23 of 51
8/30/09 at 2:06pm
Is that one of those asus boards with the fake caps from a few years back?
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post #24 of 51
8/30/09 at 7:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
I just meant to say that they are a very good cap, and that not everything in the piece was marketing drivel.

k
That's good to hear (pun unintended). I sometimes have to wonder how much in this hobby is snake oil and how much has genuine merit.

Is there anything to suggest that the extremely long burn in times often quoted by amp manufacturers and other Head-Fi members for the Blackgates is justified?
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post #25 of 51
8/30/09 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
That's good to hear (pun unintended). I sometimes have to wonder how much in this hobby is snake oil and how much has genuine merit.
Alas.

Quote:
Is there anything to suggest that the extremely long burn in times often quoted by amp manufacturers and other Head-Fi members for the Blackgates is justified?
Nothing comes to mind.

k
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post #26 of 51
8/30/09 at 11:33pm
Thread Starter 
Anyone else have information for/against capacitor burn in?

I feel I should make a note that I started this thread actually hoping for some objective information. I realise there have been a few burn-in related topics started recently by people who just want to cause a ruckus, but this isn't one of them.
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post #27 of 51
8/30/09 at 11:48pm
I really don't know why BlackGates are touted so much. They don't even give specifications for them! Part of using a component in a design is knowing it's limitations and details.

They give absolutely none. Well, unless you consider their marketing crap to be akin to specifications.

I highly doubt capacitors burn-in, or burn-in enough to make an audible difference. And capacitors can be limited lifetime things, so why speed up that cycle? And you're also keeping whatever on for the burn-in, possibly decreasing the lifetime of something else in there if it gets hot enough.

~Thomas
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post #28 of 51
8/31/09 at 12:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
Anyone else have information for/against capacitor burn in?

I feel I should make a note that I started this thread actually hoping for some objective information. I realise there have been a few burn-in related topics started recently by people who just want to cause a ruckus, but this isn't one of them.
I got into repairing old radios around 1998 (long before the hi-fi bug bit) and have replaced hundreds of capacitors over the years, as well as everything else.

I make a habit out of testing parts that I yank. Every cap, every filter and every resistor gets put on the DMM to see just how bad it was.

Over the years, I've had zero indication that any component improves with age, use and heat. The best stuff (like wirewound resistors, ceramic caps and mica caps) merely stay the same. Everything else deteriorates and goes out of spec. Even modern parts go bad eventually.

What I think some people are hearing are components that have drifted in value and give a slightly different sound overtime. You can call this "burn in" if you want, but my take is that it is just another component that has fallen out of spec and away from where the person who engineered the circuit meant the value to be.

Moreover, I think this fact has been capitalized on by some for the purposes of selling Snake Oil. A component that is no longer at its specified value is defective. Calling that a benefit is pure dishonesty.

A few times, I've powered up a set after each component has been replaced. Safely, of course, and only after I've replaced the filters and any obviously open caps. They usually sound OK at first, but you'll hear the sound straighten up and focus as each new part goes in. You can literally hear the improvements as the so-called "burned in" components are replaced.
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post #29 of 51
8/31/09 at 1:15am
I am not really a believer in component burn-in or cable burn-in. It's more your ears getting used to it then anything. Depending on your mood, what you ate that day, the medicines you took -- it all contributes to your perception of the sound being different. I posted on this awhile back but I forget which thread it was.

Speakers I feel can burn in because the surrounds loosen up over time, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will sound better to everyone when they "smooth" out.
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post #30 of 51
8/31/09 at 9:09am
I think it's likely electrical components degrade with heat and use, but our minds generally perceive components burning out as sounding good. Summer is finally over but my amp that runs so hot you can't leave your hand on it for more than 5-10 seconds has been given, I think, enough frying in Georgia heat to get at the level of burn-in that others and the manufacturer believe is beneficial to sound. I don't mind frying things so long as the manufacturer says the product will likely last many years and the general opinion is that fried electronics sound good ^^.
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