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Amp3 Pro2 and the STUDIO - Page 3  

post #31 of 929
Nice, I hope the newer versions support other music formats. All my music is encoded in Apple Lossless and I would hate having to transcode it.
post #32 of 929
Apple lossless is a proprietary format designed to help Apple KEEP customers, for the exact reason you're stating (it's a pain to transcode everything). That's why initially iTunes settings are m4a when you import CDs, and you have to change it to mp3 (they want you to do your whole music and then only realise AFTER that it's in their format.

In order for AMP3 to play apple lossless, they would have to have to pay huge royalty to Apple, which would increase the cost of the player making its inclusion highly unlikely. It's why you don't see things like RockBox including apple lossless support. It wouldn't be that hard, it's just that it isn't free (which is why flac and mp3 are so preferred).

Basically they'll either use free formats, or make their own. They're not going to pay Microsoft or Apple for permission to include support for their formats.
post #33 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punnisher View Post
Quick question about the newer models...

Could someone please demo the newer amp3 or studio with a highly sensitive iem like westone multiple driver or shure multiple driver iems? I would like to know if there is any audible hiss.

Right now my Westone UM2 is only usable with my Tomahawk since all my mp3 players hiss quite badly at the headphone jack. I'd like to be free from having to use an external amp while still using my UM2. Right now that is impossible.
I definitely will, when the Amp3 Pro 1 firmware is released, which is supposed to be the equivalent of the Pro 2 in terms of hiss reduction.
post #34 of 929
Craig, The Studio I or II sound very promising. Any idea what size the Studio will be?

I'm looking forward to the new AMP and the Studio.
post #35 of 929
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2001 View Post
Craig, The Studio I or II sound very promising. Any idea what size the Studio will be?

I'm looking forward to the new AMP and the Studio.
The Studio will be about the same as the Amp3, however I will have confirmation when it arrives.

The Studio I is something that we headfi'ers will make suggestions on how to improve the Studio II.

There will ONLY be 5 STUDIO I sold at first. Full product I'm assuming will start soon afterwards.

More details will come once we start the group review process!!

Craig
post #36 of 929
Hello, i think there are some free pc players that do support apple lossless, someone hacked the format i think. I am of course not sure if including that in an mp3-player would be a good idea.
Greetings, Anouk,
post #37 of 929
Quote:
The Studio will be about the same as the Amp3, however I will have confirmation when it arrives.
Craig, do you have any idea when hisoundaudio will update its website to reflect its actual product line? My assumption is that the Rock, Golden Hall and Master items are no longer intended for production?

I would imagine that spending time on a webpage is not a priority for the company at this moment. Its sales will come from forums such as this and Jaben.

Nonetheless it would be helpful to clarify matters, or are things just moving too quickly atm?
post #38 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Apple lossless is a proprietary format designed to help Apple KEEP customers, for the exact reason you're stating (it's a pain to transcode everything). That's why initially iTunes settings are m4a when you import CDs, and you have to change it to mp3 (they want you to do your whole music and then only realise AFTER that it's in their format.

In order for AMP3 to play apple lossless, they would have to have to pay huge royalty to Apple, which would increase the cost of the player making its inclusion highly unlikely. It's why you don't see things like RockBox including apple lossless support. It wouldn't be that hard, it's just that it isn't free (which is why flac and mp3 are so preferred).

Basically they'll either use free formats, or make their own. They're not going to pay Microsoft or Apple for permission to include support for their formats.
Just to clarify, mp3 is not free as you suggest. Rather it is a patented codec and usage of which requires royalty payments.

It is easy to confuse ubiquitous, as in freely available, with free. Presumably, usage of mp3 impacts on manufacturers of DAP products by involving payment of a licence fee to the Fraunhofer Institute or to a patent royalty collection company acting on its behalf.

Actual free, as in open source royalty-free audio codecs, include ogg vorbis and, as you rightly point out, FLAC .

I would love to hear an explanation as to why these royalty free codecs are not more commonly supported by DAPs. Simply as a matter of course, one would expect to find them on the list but more often or not they are absent.

Hisoundaudio is not untypical in this, until just now FLAC was not supported and, so far as I can see, there is no mention of ogg anywhere.

My simplistic logic doesn’t understand why, if the codecs are free and arguably superior (especially in the case of ogg), then why are they not automatically supported by manufacturers such as Hisoundaudio and others?

Quote:
i think there are some free pc players that do support apple lossless, someone hacked the format i think. I am of course not sure if including that in an mp3-player would be a good idea.
As regards the Apple ALAC codec, I understand that there is an open source reverse engineered royalty free equivalent so it should be possible to use this to support ALAC files without royalty payment to Apple.
ALAC - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase
Though whether manufacturers who use this run the risk of incurring the wrath of Apple’s legal enforcers is an interesting subject for conjecture.
post #39 of 929
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebski View Post
Just to clarify, mp3 is not free as you suggest. Rather it is a patented codec and usage of which requires royalty payments.

It is easy to confuse ubiquitous, as in freely available, with free. Presumably, usage of mp3 impacts on manufacturers of DAP products by involving payment of a licence fee to the Fraunhofer Institute or to a patent royalty collection company acting on its behalf.

Actual free, as in open source royalty-free audio codecs, include ogg vorbis and, as you rightly point out, FLAC .

I would love to hear an explanation as to why these royalty free codecs are not more commonly supported by DAPs. Simply as a matter of course, one would expect to find them on the list but more often or not they are absent.

Hisoundaudio is not untypical in this, until just now FLAC was not supported and, so far as I can see, there is no mention of ogg anywhere.

My simplistic logic doesn’t understand why, if the codecs are free and arguably superior (especially in the case of ogg), then why are they not automatically supported by manufacturers such as Hisoundaudio and others?


As regards the Apple ALAC codec, I understand that there is an open source reverse engineered royalty free equivalent so it should be possible to use this to support ALAC files without royalty payment to Apple.
ALAC - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase
Though whether manufacturers who use this run the risk of incurring the wrath of Apple’s legal enforcers is an interesting subject for conjecture.
There is more to it then using a codec. There are limitations to Chips that is used and what they are capable of. I really can't go much further to 2 reasons. One, I don't have all the facts on other codecs and 2, there are details on the Chip that I really can't share.

I do know that they are moving in that direction. Mentioning these options are fantastic ways for us to gather what listeners are looking for. We do not take it personal, but in fact look at as an opportunity to decide what feature/changes should be included in the next version. The Pro2 changes were mostly in part mentioned by headfi'ers!!

So please, comments are great.

Thx!
Craig
post #40 of 929
Thread Starter 
The MANUAL is finished!!

email me at csanborn@whiplashaudio.com and I will send it to you.

I'm trying to find a place to put it..

Craig
post #41 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebski View Post
Just to clarify, mp3 is not free as you suggest. Rather it is a patented codec and usage of which requires royalty payments.

It is easy to confuse ubiquitous, as in freely available, with free. Presumably, usage of mp3 impacts on manufacturers of DAP products by involving payment of a licence fee to the Fraunhofer Institute or to a patent royalty collection company acting on its behalf.

Actual free, as in open source royalty-free audio codecs, include ogg vorbis and, as you rightly point out, FLAC .

I would love to hear an explanation as to why these royalty free codecs are not more commonly supported by DAPs. Simply as a matter of course, one would expect to find them on the list but more often or not they are absent.

Hisoundaudio is not untypical in this, until just now FLAC was not supported and, so far as I can see, there is no mention of ogg anywhere.

My simplistic logic doesn’t understand why, if the codecs are free and arguably superior (especially in the case of ogg), then why are they not automatically supported by manufacturers such as Hisoundaudio and others?


As regards the Apple ALAC codec, I understand that there is an open source reverse engineered royalty free equivalent so it should be possible to use this to support ALAC files without royalty payment to Apple.
ALAC - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase
Though whether manufacturers who use this run the risk of incurring the wrath of Apple’s legal enforcers is an interesting subject for conjecture.
My confusion stems from the fact that rockbox offers mp3 support, not that mp3's are widely available. I wouldn't think a freeware service would pay royalties, or some thing so popular not have been sued yet. Are you sure it hasn't become public domain somehow? I did understand that original mp3's were patented and people used to have to pay, but does RockBox pay? Or is there some limitation that you're only restricted if you make money off of your service?

The reason for proprietary formats is as I've stated... it helps them to keep customers.
post #42 of 929
Thank you Craig for the updated manual and all your other hard work! The manual is here.
post #43 of 929
Quote:
My confusion stems from the fact that rockbox offers mp3 support, not that mp3's are widely available. I wouldn't think a freeware service would pay royalties, or some thing so popular not have been sued yet. Are you sure it hasn't become public domain somehow? I did understand that original mp3's were patented and people used to have to pay, but does RockBox pay? Or is there some limitation that you're only restricted if you make money off of your service?
From what I understand, Rockbox is not a corporate entity. Rather, Rockbox OEM replacement firmware is available to us as the result of individuals' efforts. This distinction is important to understand, for many reasons and not least that there is no one to sue.

Furthermore, the DAPs that Rockbox supports, in my case iRiver H140, are probably already licensed for MP3 playback so Rockbox is not contravening any MP3 patent agreement.

As regards file distribution, from what I have read, a royalty has to be paid if the .MP3 file is sold. If the .MP3 file is distributed for free then no royalty is charged.

Though quite what happens when the 'for sale' file has been encoded with LAME I don't know.

All of which is interesting but for the purposes of this Thread we are only concerned with playback support which is embedded in the DAP itself.

As Craig helpfully points out, much of this is dependent on the design of the chip used and so seems to be not just a firmware issue.

Quote:
The reason for proprietary formats is as I've stated... it helps them to keep customers.
Absolutely so and which is why I suspect that the licensing costs for ALAC support would be totally untenable for a company such as Hisoundaudio to carry. Apple's motive here is get us to buy iPods not Amp3s and it's proprietary codecs are a means to that end.

Personally speaking I am always amazed that people allow themselves to be sucked into that trap. But that is another subject for another thread.
post #44 of 929
Quote:
Mentioning these options are fantastic ways for us to gather what listeners are looking for. We do not take it personal, but in fact look at as an opportunity to decide what feature/changes should be included in the next version. The Pro2 changes were mostly in part mentioned by headfi'ers!!

So please, comments are great.
Craig, I guess at some point you will open a new thread of this purpose. Possibly when the initial run of the Studio is available for evaluation?
post #45 of 929
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebski View Post
Craig, I guess at some point you will open a new thread of this purpose. Possibly when the initial run of the Studio is available for evaluation?
That is correct!!

I wanted to receive the new players first and than I can have a tread created for this purpose. The Amp pro1 was a smashing success. Hisoundaudio has repeated to me many times that all we can do is go up from here. In fact, this is the beginning and they have the ability to produce more models that exceed what has been released so far. So basically we start here (Amp3 pro1) and increase SQ while maintaining the competitive feature rich player/amp combo.

Craig
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