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Are there real differences between electrostatic amps?

post #1 of 78
8/21/09 at 4:23am
Thread Starter 
I would like to hear a skeptic point of view on electrostatic amps. I'm under the impression, that normal, well made solid state amps do not really have audible differences, but what about the electrostatic amps? I was able to get myself a baby orpheus, but was somewhat underwhelmed by the sound. The common lore goes that the HEV70 "Energizer" is the weak link, but are there really any audible improvements if moving to, say, KGSS? The upgrade is damn expensive and I cannot really test it anywhere, so would have to buy it without trying...
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post #2 of 78
8/21/09 at 6:02am
Yes!
Design differences, power resource differences, and more. All having an impact on the end result. That said I have never heard the HEV70 or KGSS, but have some experience with other solid state electrostatic amplifiers.
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post #3 of 78
8/21/09 at 6:52am
Thread Starter 
Well, there are huge differences between designs and power resources in normal solid amplifiers as well.
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post #4 of 78
8/21/09 at 7:31am
An amplifier as such doesn't make sound. The combined result of an amplifier and the speakers or headphones it drives varies. Being "under the impression" doesn't help either. Empirical experience combined with the knowledge of the electronic architecture will explain to you what's going on.
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post #5 of 78
8/21/09 at 7:46am
Thread Starter 
um ok, let me rephrase the question, and this is a question for the SCEPTIC side of the fence, I don't want to get into arguments. So, what I want to know is, are there more difference between the electrostatic amps than there are between normal solid state amps? Is it possible that the HEV70 is really underpowered and subclass, or are the improvements of the "subjective nature"?

This all comes down to the big question, that I don't know where the line between snake oil and real products is, because everybody seems to have their own opinion..
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post #6 of 78
8/21/09 at 10:33am
You want an answer that can only be found out by finding out for yourself. Just the same as you could ask me all about living in Japan, but unless you lived here yourself, you wouldn't truly understand. This is a fact.
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post #7 of 78
8/21/09 at 10:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
You want an answer that can only be found out by finding out for yourself. Just the same as you could ask me all about living in Japan, but unless you lived here yourself, you wouldn't truly understand. This is a fact.
No, to put it bluntly, I want to know are there people who do not belief there are difference between solid state amps but do believe that there are differences between electrostat amps. Or even better, has anyone done any measurements on the frequence response etc. on electrostatic headphone amps?

Cost of trying an expensive electrostatic amp is several thousand euros, and I would really need more information before subjeting my wallet to anymore torture, even tough it has been naughty..
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post #8 of 78
8/21/09 at 10:54am
Hello, Oedipus Rex, my name is skeptic. There is no difference between electrostatic amps because any measurable differences are many orders of magnitudes above our ability to perceive a difference. The fact that nobody has ever passed a dbt test to show the claimed difference between any amps, electrostatic or otherwise, proves that there is no possible difference between a $200 amp and a $5000 one. Most persuasively, head-fi user Gregorio, who has spent a lifetime in the studio, knows that there is no difference between amps. If we trust Gregorio with the task to output such flawlessly mastered albums like we've seen in the last few decades (especially in the genre of pop rock!), should we not trust this wise old man when he says there is no possible audible difference between any dacs or amps? He has spent his whole life in the studio and never noticed a difference! What a tragic life he'd have lived if he was wrong! And that is impossible that he was wrong, and should tell you everything you need to know.
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post #9 of 78
8/21/09 at 11:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by haloxt View Post
Hello, Oedipus Rex, my name is skeptic. There is no difference between electrostatic amps because any measurable differences are many orders of magnitudes above our ability to perceive a difference. The fact that nobody has ever passed a dbt test to show the claimed difference between any amps, electrostatic or otherwise, proves that there is no possible difference between a $200 amp and a $5000 one. Most persuasively, head-fi user Gregorio, who has spent a lifetime in the studio, knows that there is no difference between amps. If we trust Gregorio with the task to output such flawlessly mastered albums like we've seen in the last few decades (especially in the genre of pop rock!), should we not trust this wise old man when he says there is no possible audible difference between any dacs or amps? He has spent his whole life in the studio and never noticed a difference! What a tragic life he'd have lived if he was wrong! And that is impossible that he was wrong, and should tell you everything you need to know.
In response to my simple question not only did you decide to resort to an adhominem argument, but you used that argument against somebody who hasn't even taken part in the discussion.
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post #10 of 78
8/21/09 at 11:56am
I'm serious here, there's been no dbt tests showing there's an audible difference between amps! Until then, Gregorio is right and you are wrong. Get off your high horse and discuss facts and stop acting so offended.
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post #11 of 78
8/21/09 at 11:59am
So you're wanting someone to tell you there's no difference.

Ok, there's no difference.

But of course there is a difference, it's measurable, and audible, both for electrostatic and dynamic designs. It's even easily verifiable. Whether any given amp comparison is worth the difference is subjective, but that there are differences is objective.
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post #12 of 78
8/21/09 at 12:44pm
Look at the voltage swing in electrostatic amps. That's a real world, measurable and audible difference.
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post #13 of 78
8/21/09 at 12:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by grawk View Post
So you're wanting someone to tell you there's no difference.
Well, to me there is a scale of credibility when it comes to audio equipment. The scale goes from total snake oil stuff like the "magic brick" and ends in speakers/headphones. I also have a subjective point on this line, where my belief lies. On the other side of that point, are stuff like cables etc. that I do not belief have audible effect, and on the other side things like speakers and headphones, which I do belief have effect on the sound.

I used to think that sources like cd-player do not have effect, but amps do. That was the old dividing point on my scale, but then I read a few articles like this one:
http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

And now my point of belief has moved on the other side of amplifiers. What I try to figure out is where on this scale of mine should I place electrostatic amplifiers. For this, I was looking for someone who does not belief in the difference between "normal" amplifiers to say whether they feel any differently about electrostatic amplifiers or not. If I find people who are skeptics about normal amplifiers but not about electrostatic amplifiers, then there is hope.
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post #14 of 78
8/21/09 at 12:51pm

reliable (subjective) comparisons may simply not exist

I suspect simple max Vswing and clipping recovery would be a bigger problem in electrostatic amp comparisons - the sensitivity of these cans, combined with the range of electrostatic amp's max swing typically doesn't get to live music dynamic peak SPL

the high end amps appear to all be single ended Class A - the headphones require the peak I at high frequencies into the pure capacitive load - leading to possible frequency dependent (asymmetric) clipping or slew rate limiting

the huge inefficiency means 100 W + supplies delivering uW to the load, "simple" low loop gain tube topologies suggest that power supply rejection or tube microphonics could be issues as well

quick ABX comparisons are likely even more difficult with electrostatics - possibly slow membrane charging when switching polarizing V may make simple cable swapping unsuitable

who's got the equipment to match 500Vpp at Khz to 0.1 dB without loading a ~100pF system? or a >1kV relay switching box?

the expense of the amps also limits the number anyone's likely to accumulate at one time for testing


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
why does everyone jump to the ridiculous "straw man" extreme

DBT clearly shows that frequency/level response differences do cause audible differences - at level differences well below easy perception as volume or peaks/rolloffs per se

Other obviously audible differences are V,I clipping limits – a little time with truly dynamic music source at loud average levels will leave more headphone/amp combinations clipping more often than most people here seem to appreciate
and the Head-fi penchant for recommendations of “this really good amp” without regard to dynamic headphone’s huge impedance and sensitivity ranges - 16 - 600 Ohms, less than 90 to over 130 dB/mW

The only formulation of “all amplifiers sound the same” worth considering comes with at least these minimum caveats:

Adjusted to the same level/equalized where necessary to match frequency response into the specific load to within DBT established thresholds (~0.1 dB overall level match, relaxing at frequency extremes or for narrow frequency ranges of difference)

Neither amp driven to clipping

When these conditions are achieved then we can consider more subtle distortion issues – again a baseline is for distortion products to be low, of low order and to decrease with signal level – no underbiased Class B with crossover distortions allowed – very easy to avoid in headphone amps where Class A with high dynamic headroom only costs a few Watts

Amps with under sized DC blocking caps, output impedances differing by many % of the headphone’s nominal impedance, limited bandwidth signal path transformers all would be expected to sound different on the DBT frequency response match grounds alone – by hard core objectivist, “by the numbers” engineers – and they would consider such differences “uninteresting” and uninformative on the issue of whether certain devices or circuit approaches have different “sounds”
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post #15 of 78
8/21/09 at 9:09pm
You are simplifying the equation a little too much. For solid state dynamic amplifiers to sound the same, they have to have a high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, and low noise floor.

There aren't many solid state electrostatic amps to compare (and everyone agrees tubes sound different). Now, I don't know what the relevant characteristics are of an electrostatic amp, but you need to make sure that the two amps you are comparing are the same as to those characeteristics (or, if there are differences, they are below the audible threshhold). But I can tell you that the HEV70 clips early and often so that is one huge advantage the KGSS will have over it.
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