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Review: Three Flagship Custom IEM - Westone ES3X vs Jerry Harvey JH13Pro vs Ultimate Ears UE11Pro - Page 8

post #106 of 343
As a service to the head-fi community we must do all we can to ensure that ALL existing members -- regardless of age and material wealth -- get the following items in the next 3 months:

-- JH13's,
-- HiFiMAN HM-801,
-- iQube/ RSA Shadow/ Pico Slim
-- Piccolino LOD's & cables.

The above gear is the absolute minimum required to continue being a member of head-fi. Failing to acquire all the above gear will cause their accounts to be suspended permanently.

To those joining head-fi -- regardless of age and material wealth -- it should be mandatory that in the course of 6 months they get all the gear outlined above or else their accounts will be closed permanently.
post #107 of 343
Good work.

And yet a speaker system (less expensive that that) would beat those IEMs...

(Flame suit on)
post #108 of 343
Define....."beat" Besides, It would be kinda hard jogging or moving about the yard or garage with a pair of ESS towers attached to your head.

Aplles, oranges, and grapes my friend...
post #109 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
Good work.

And yet a speaker system (less expensive that that) would beat those IEMs...

(Flame suit on)
A speaker system, and either an architect or a significant amount of acoustic treatment might be comparable (which would put the price higher than the JH13s). I have a speaker system in that price range, and because of crappy room acoustics (i.e. first surface reflections and phase cancellation) it is beat by my Grados.
post #110 of 343
Quote:
You seem to have the opinion that because the JH13 is now out, and is a leading edge product, that Westone sucks all of a sudden. I don't think that anything in the review says or even implies that. IMO, there are still advantages to the ES3X, including the heat sensitive tips and a great level of transparency. The ES3X also has higher impedence than the 10x3, which is a big advantage for studio and stage use. I'm also generally of the opinion that flagship products are the ones to own. Any non-flagship product has as one of its (unspoken) design criteria "must be worse than our flagship". I feel the same way about computer parts such as video cards. I'll often buy last's generation's flagship rather than a current midrange part. And yes, I'm still considering an ES3X as one of my options for customs.

You also can't forget that at least one member of the Westone development team is an active reader of this site. They are probably having meetings about their next move as we speak.

That said, I truly believe the JH Audio products are amazing, and I'm not implying otherwise by believing that Westone is still in the game.
I didn't day Westone sucked, I said that they're not leading the industry right now, at least as far as custom IEM's is concerned.

The ES3X is, not doubt, a very nice custom IEM, and I never meant to imply that is isn't.

I'm just suggesting that when it comes to custom IEM's, you've got Jerry Harvey leading the way in development and innovation, and others following and/or doing their best to keep up. It's quite a long track record, and once again, if you go down the list of all the top custom IEM's of all time, it's pretty much a chronology of Jerry Harvey innovations.
post #111 of 343
I was talking about a speaker setup in a room where you have EQd it and under good conditions. It can run for less than then price of this IEMs.

Even so let the war die, for what it looks like this IEMs are good.
post #112 of 343
No wars here..LOL only babbles (battles)
post #113 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post
Excellent post!

I think an important factor to take into account is that JH was present at Can JAm -- he already had a very good reputation --, offered a 10% discount, and was offering what seemed to be a completely new beast - 6 drivers in each earpiece!

Quite a few people took the plunge, some of which are prominent members here, and I think that played a part in the often over-the-top responses seen on the JH13 thread.

Had similar numbers of people been given a similar chance at Can Jam, with a similar discount from Westone back in Jan/ Feb perhaps we might've seen a similar thing going on with the ES3X. As it was, the ES3X for a while caught a lot of people's attention, but not enough to make more 'prominent' members go for it. Perhaps if the ES3X had been priced at $1000 even more people would've been interested, as strange as this may sound.
You bring up a really good point about the effect of releasing a product in conjunction with the national meet.

The absolute 'classic' example that describes what you're suggesting happened when the Grado GS-1000 was released at one of the first CanJam's. You wouldn't believe the praise that they received. In fact, at the risk of wading into dangerous waters, Jude's reputation for objectivity took a major hit as a result of his tremendous enthusiasm for the new Grado.

Once the cans were formally released and some of the hype factors had died down, the GS-1000 was subjected to more objective criticism.

I'm not saying the JH13pro is similar to the GS-1000 in terms of being hyped without warrant. But I did notice that Jerry Harvey's personal charisma seemed to be mentioned in a number of the comments about the JH13pro's from CanJam. Again, I'm not saying that his personality is the driving force behind the sales, but these are the kinds of factors that you notice from an outsider perspective.

I was really lucky when I joined head-fi because I lived very close to a veteran member who had a ton of experience with gear and a very even tempered and developed ear. One of the great things about going to meets is that, sometimes, you'll get into an environment where some of the 'politcal correctness' that gets infused into opinions on head-fi can be dropped in favor of candor. I learned a lot from those experiences.

Quote:
I have seen so many times terms such as 'destroys'/ 'thrashes'/ 'beats hands down' to describe certain comparisons between certain top-tier universals or customs that by now I take such comments with a big, BIG grain of salt.

I think the ES3X for $800 compared to the other 2 flagship IEM's remains quite an interesting option.

I remain convinced the UM3X at $335 (including shipping) is certainly the best value for money when considering high-end portable SQ + comfort. $335 is still a lot of money, but when we're now talking $1,100/ $1,150 + ear impressions and shipping, then the UM3X seem like iBuds when clearly they aren't.

What I said a few months back seems to be coming true -- looks like many will do anything to get their hands now on a set of JH13's no matter what, and no matter whether they can actually truly afford such luxury.

Here in Spain (and Italy & Greece) quite a few people (younger people mostly) will do anything they can -- no matter how inappropriate/ unsuitable it may be -- to get their hands on a BMW or Mercedes.


I appreciate the critical perspective that you bring on these topics, while I know others can feel threatened by it. I still say you should take a more comical view of some of these phenomenon, but then again, I'm probably a little more cynical as a result of having been around a while.

Ironically, it's usually the folks that fit into your manic consumer stereotype that will react most defensively to such an insinuation. The truth can be threatening.

While you compare it to the car market, personally, I like comparing it to the computer gaming market. It applies to any hobby like this, though. It's a really interesting facet of consumer psychology that reflects a type of 'created wants' marketing phenomenon. Noam Chomsky is a good one for analysis of the basic structure and causes.




Anyways, on the topic of the comparison itself, one thing I wanted to mention is that I really like the decision Jerry Harvey made to bump the very low bass to create psychoacoustic impact.
post #114 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by boomana View Post
roy_jones and powertoold, the differences in how people post about other custom iems and the JH13s, imo, are due those weird psychological twists that are as real as the technology. I can only post from my experience, but talking with others who own them, I think our experiences are similar. My take is that the UE11s are wonderful iems, but the mid bass bloom (very enjoyable sometimes, and bothersome other times) became an increasing irritant, only because it was soooo close to my perceived definition of perfection, I was bothered by that one flaw far more than I am bothered by the many flaws of clearly lesser iems and headphones. When the JH13s not only took away the flaw, but also added to the strengths of the UE11s, a gulf was created between my genuine appreciation of the UE11s and my OMG, this is it! reaction to the JH13s that is emotionally huge. In reality, the differences may be subtle, but they are easily recognized by all who have heard them. When you move from years of close-but-no-cigar realities to a sudden recognition of complete satisfaction, posts reflect unabashed enthusiasm. Hope that made some sense.

I know exactly what you mean. The empirical process of you're describing is the one that I try to use to guide my upgrade decisions.

There is often a debate about whether it's better to overshoot your background and experience when making a purchasing decision (ie: go to the top product even if you haven't heard the lower end ones), or to go in more graduated steps using the experience gained to narrow in one's own preferences.

I'm very much in the latter category, although I've used both approaches. I don't think it's as easy to quantify the relative value of upgrading without that experiential sense of what you would like to see improved over your current setup.

One of the effects, though, is that once you do find that sweet spot, it can be like unlocking the door to real enjoyment, and the experience can come across as more profound than it would be to someone who hadn't gone through the process, even though it may actually be based on a minor change or tweak.
post #115 of 343
For BOOMANA,,,That sounds downright giddy...
post #116 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_jones View Post
You bring up a really good point about the effect of releasing a product in conjunction with the national meet.

The absolute 'classic' example that describes what you're suggesting happened when the Grado GS-1000 was released at one of the first CanJam's. You wouldn't believe the praise that they received. In fact, at the risk of wading into dangerous waters, Jude's reputation for objectivity took a major hit as a result of his tremendous enthusiasm for the new Grado.

Once the cans were formally released and some of the hype factors had died down, the GS-1000 was subjected to more objective criticism.

I'm not saying the JH13pro is similar to the GS-1000 in terms of being hyped without warrant. But I did notice that Jerry Harvey's personal charisma seemed to be mentioned in a number of the comments about the JH13pro's from CanJam. Again, I'm not saying that his personality is the driving force behind the sales, but these are the kinds of factors that you notice from an outsider perspective.

I was really lucky when I joined head-fi because I lived very close to a veteran member who had a ton of experience with gear and a very even tempered and developed ear. One of the great things about going to meets is that, sometimes, you'll get into an environment where some of the 'politcal correctness' that gets infused into opinions on head-fi can be dropped in favor of candor. I learned a lot from those experiences.





I appreciate the critical perspective that you bring on these topics, while I know others can feel threatened by it. I still say you should take a more comical view of some of these phenomenon, but then again, I'm probably a little more cynical as a result of having been around a while.

Ironically, it's usually the folks that fit into your manic consumer stereotype that will react most defensively to such an insinuation. The truth can be threatening.

While you compare it to the car market, personally, I like comparing it to the computer gaming market. It applies to any hobby like this, though. It's a really interesting facet of consumer psychology that reflects a type of 'created wants' marketing phenomenon. Noam Chomsky is a good one for analysis of the basic structure and causes.




Anyways, on the topic of the comparison itself, one thing I wanted to mention is that I really like the decision Jerry Harvey made to bump the very low bass to create psychoacoustic impact.
If you mention Noam Chomsky in certain quarters, you may get into more serious trouble than I did when I dared mention the age/ immaturity factor. :-) <---- much needed smiley here
post #117 of 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
Good work.

And yet a speaker system (less expensive that that) would beat those IEMs...

(Flame suit on)
It befuddles me that a person who believes speakers are so far superior to headphones is here at head-fi with more than 1300 posts. Most people here knows that there is a group of people out there who will prefer the sound of speakers, no matter what. I don't mind that they're here, but when some of them state things that have almost zero objective truths like "a speaker system (less expensive that that) would beat those IEMs" it really makes me think these people should better post their silly comments in their speaker-fi forum (I'm assuming one exists), exclusively.
post #118 of 343
Man, tough room!
post #119 of 343
You ain't seen nothing yet.... sparks have been flying in the Stax thread too. And the JH13 appreciation thread crowd gets easily really upset too.
post #120 of 343
Thank for the whole-hearted writing. I am leaning to JH 13 PRO now after reading your review.
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