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triple fi: coherent sound? - Page 2

post #16 of 54
The Sennheiser IE8 doesn't roll off too much in the HF. But I thought I'd point about the huge near 15db bass boost on the IE8's. WOW!!!
post #17 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post
That's really weird. Sometimes, on old recordings which were engineered for hi-fi's where the speakers were practically next to each other, you'll have one set of instruments dominate the left speaker while another set dominate the right - with the effect that imaging is extremely dynamic (e.g. The Who's Pinball Wizard). But if you're regularly hearing bass out of one earpiece and treble out of the other, that's nowhere near acceptable. I had no similar experience with my Triple Fi's - and I'm glad. I think I would have gone out of my mind.

It's possible that the wiring was wrong and you had phase issues, but who knows?

On what planet? If the speakers are wired up properly, there shouldn't be a problem in phase coherence. If you have a driver sucking when the other is blowing, or you have drivers that aren't vertically aligned, well, that's a screw-up with consequence. It's not a fault of multi-driver designs. Single-driver designs are almost always those plastic boomboxes you see at Walmart, the ones with the fake woofers and the non-existent tweeters. I'll take my chances with my four-way at home. The wiring really isn't that complicated.

Hahaha, you're killing me. Stop. Oh, wow, I think I just peed my pants. Yeah, good times.

But seriously, laugh all you want after you've looked at a frequency response graph. I gave you a link. Did you check it, or were you too busy laughing to click. I'll tell you what. Here it is. Look at it carefully and then tell me about the SE530's horrible HF roll-off. To my eyes, there's plenty of roll-off to go around. Why pick on the SE530?

Build A Graph - HeadRoom: Stereo Headphones, Amps & DACs, Wireless, Noise Canceling, Ear Canal, Earbud, Audio Cables & Accessories

While we're laughing our sixteen-year-old pants off, lets stop and read an excerpt from "How to Interpret Headphone Data" at Headroom.com. I just love this little excerpt and I'm sure you will as well: Eh, but what do they know at Headroom? Maybe we should do a Chicken Little Dance while we throw the SE530 down a mineshaft.

Well, you'll have to forgive me. I go with what I hear, not with what I read. You might want to do the same.

Oh, wait a minute. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
Now that's a pretty manic post.
I don't think you're trying to understand what the OP is saying.
From my understanding of loud speaker design, phase coherance problems within the frequency spectrum can be introduced by the crossover and the and the capacitive/ inductive characteristics of the indevidual drivers. It seems the OP is especially sensitive to these influences. Remember that a three driver per channel earphone has two areas of driver overlap.
I have never noticed this problem with my se530s, so I cannot comment further on the triple.fi.
Sandy.
post #18 of 54
I think you should try CK100 and many ER4P users seems to love these IEMs or PFE an other option but IMO it's true SE530 soundfield miss that some how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antony6555 View Post
I had an se530 before I got er-4. My biggest problem besides the rolled off highs was the lack of soundstage coherence. Basically, it sounded like treble was coming from one tweeter and bass was coming from a totally different driver, which it is. My er-4s, on the other hand, has a very coherent soundstage. Is coherence in soundstage a problem with the triple fi as well?
post #19 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antony6555 View Post
I think you still don't really understand my problem with the se530. It's not that I only hear bass out of one earphone and not the other. Rather, it's that it sounds like the treble comes from the top of the soundstage and the bass comes from the bottom of the soundstage and then there's a sort-of void in between. Which makes it sound like they're coming from two separate sources, and why it doesn't sound coherent.
Well, you do know that the Triple Fi makes a big deal about its "dual bore technology," which is nothing more than keeping the upper/lower soundtubes separated. I never heard any such separation. To me, it was all a stupid gimmick for the gullible. Maybe it's actually noticeable, but I can't help but wonder if you saw this dual-bore thing and started hearing it afterwards.

To me, the dual-bore gimmick was always stupidity on a stick. First, if you look at loudspeakers, the tweeters, mids and woofers aren't separated to prevent mixing. They're often presented together as a unit. Second, given the tiny space between the sound outlet and the eardrum (not to mention the fact that it all ends up in the same ear canal), these guys are selling more sizzle than steak. I doubt there's any difference - for good or evil. I certainly never heard any.
post #20 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post
To me, the dual-bore gimmick was always stupidity on a stick.
The dual-bore can make all the difference between a UM56'd universal and a full-fledged custom (see: UM3X + UM56 vs. ES3X).
post #21 of 54
Just as soon as I thought the IE8 had the most ridiculous over emphasized bass ever. I found the IE8 ( bass boost ) version!



Look at that huge bass boost and very forward midrange, my goodness.
post #22 of 54
I'm assuming Headroom's graphs necessitate a near-perfect seal to the monitoring equipment, in which case that graph is none too surprising. However I assure you it sounds nothing like that unless you purposely try to stuff them far into your ears and achieve a heavily-isolating seal.
post #23 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3X0 View Post
I'm assuming Headroom's graphs necessitate a near-perfect seal to the monitoring equipment, in which case that graph is none too surprising. However I assure you it sounds nothing like that unless you purposely try to stuff them far into your ears and achieve a heavily-isolating seal.
Isn't that the primary goal when evaluating a IEM?
post #24 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon [09] View Post
Isn't that the primary goal when evaluating a IEM?
The IE 8 isn't really an IEM.
post #25 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3X0 View Post
The IE 8 isn't really an IEM.
It isn't? Is it an earbud?
post #26 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon [09] View Post
Just as soon as I thought the IE8 had the most ridiculous over emphasized bass ever. I found the IE8 ( bass boost ) version!



Look at that huge bass boost and very forward midrange, my goodness.
And while you're at it, look at the HF roll-off. IE8 does a pretty good job of maintaining something past 10 kHz but it's a fact of life that they all attenuate the HF. It's not by accident.
post #27 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post
And while you're at it, look at the HF roll-off. IE8 does a pretty good job of maintaining something past 10 kHz but it's a fact of life that they all attenuate the HF. It's not by accident.
I wish they had a frequency response graph of the JH13 Pro. But that would mean they would have to get an ear impression on the dummy head and I'm not sure they're willing to drop $1,000+ on a dummy and only the dummy unless they get a refit after the test to fit their ears.

Bilavideo, do you think these high end custom earphones have a much more pronounced volume above the 10khz range than these universals?
post #28 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrane View Post
Now that's a pretty manic post. I don't think you're trying to understand what the OP is saying. From my understanding of loud speaker design, phase coherance problems within the frequency spectrum can be introduced by the crossover and the and the capacitive/ inductive characteristics of the indevidual drivers. It seems the OP is especially sensitive to these influences. Remember that a three driver per channel earphone has two areas of driver overlap.
In loudspeaker design, phase coherence issues show up when speakers are "out of phase," that is, when one driver is pushing while another is pulling. This can be caused in a single-driver setup if two wide-range drivers are out of phase (wired up with reversed polarities). It can be caused in two-way and three-way setups when the drivers along the vertical axis are wired out of phase (again, one drive pushing while another is pulling) as well as if the left and right sides are wired out of phase (with reversed polarities).

As far as crossovers are concerned, the phase issues show up in second-, third-, fourth- and higher-order crossovers. A gentle-sloping first-order crossover - which is the kind used with the Triple Fi's - is the least problematic when it comes to phase issues. As for driver overlap, that creates frequency bumps, not phase issues. If these earphones are having phase issues, it's because of faulty wiring, not a first-order crossover. But I'm skeptical even of that. A few millimeters of dual-bore technology may impress somebody, but I think it's a mirage. I had Triple Fi's. I didn't hear any difference. What's more, in experimenting with my own drivers (and using dual-bore sound tubing) I heard no difference, and certainly not some bass coming from a completely different area than the treble. I think this is consumer hypnosis.
post #29 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeon [09] View Post
I wish they had a frequency response graph of the JH13 Pro. But that would mean they would have to get an ear impression on the dummy head and I'm not sure they're willing to drop $1,000+ on a dummy and only the dummy unless they get a refit after the test to fit their ears.

Bilavideo, do you think these high end custom earphones have a much more pronounced volume above the 10khz range than these universals?
Most of the time, the reason for the HF roll-off is basic. The companies that make the drivers, including Knowles Acoustics, have traditionally made these drivers for use in hearing aids. Their use in hi-fi is an extension from that original R&D. In the world of hearing aids, midrange is the coin of the realm. It's where we live. Some 90% of the sonic detail we use comes right out of the midrange. The extremes of bass and treble add presence, the warmth and boom-boom on the low end, and the sizzle on the high end.

Most of the drivers are not dedicated woofers, midrange or tweeters. They're wide-range drivers, the BA equivalent of all-purpose speakers. Consumers get excited when a manufacturer says it has introduced a "triple-driver" design (with most configurations using two drivers, the second of which is a "dual" to make two into three). But without a dedicated tweeter, the HF is going to be attenuated. What's more, there's a reason to cut back on it. Given the close proximities, a little HF really does go a long way. In a hearing aid, this could produce painful spikes. Not surprisingly, these drivers - from their use in hearing aids to the present - have been traditionally capped with HF filters. You can actually increase HF by removing the filters, widening the aperture, reducing the length of the outlet tube or by using dedicated tweeters.

Prior to developing the TWFK (dual woofer/tweeter), Knowles Acoustics developed the FK (half of the TWFK), which has very high HF extension. This, or something very much like it, is what high-end IEMS have been using as a dedicated tweeter. On the SE530, it's outnumbered, on a two-to-one basis, by two wide-range drivers that look very much like the CI-22955. That's probably why the SE530 has emphasized bass and midrange, perhaps a little more than some people like. There are several ways to increase HF extension. One would be to filter the midrange/bass drivers, but that would require getting into the shell. Another would be to decrease the length of the sound outlet. That may seem like vandalism, but you don't have to cut the tube. The SE530 has a slightly longer sound tube, plus little bumps around the base to limit how far back you can push a foamy. I used a piece of stethoscopic tubing, cored a foamy and pushed the foamy back. This allowed me to shorten the tube while doing a third thing, which was to open the aperture. Sure enough, HF widened to the edges of shrillness.

For an HF freak, this would make the SE530 more pleasant. For me, I'm not sure it was really necessary. What makes the SE530 feel a little weird is the full midrange. Whether they realize it or not, a lot of people prefer recessed mids.

I don't think these high-end customs have a much more pronounced HF response, though they could. I think the same ear dynamics are at work, regardless of the type of earphone. But customs are using acrylic plastic, not foamies. Foamies soak up HF a bit, allowing the user to crank things a little louder and engage more bass. This is not unlike the L-Pad attenuation I do on my loudspeaker system. I have to attenuate the mid-tweet to compensate for the baffle effect. Otherwise, I never really get to hear my woofers. If you consider the pathetic, miniaturized, nothing that passes for BA woofers, it's really not surprising that these systems would be geared to emphasize bass and downplay HF, if only to get as much bass in there as possible, given the circumstances. I think Headroom even had something to say about that:

Quote:
A "natural sounding" headphone should be slightly higher in the bass in the bass (about 3 or 4 dB) between 40Hz and 500Hz. This compensates for the fact that headphones don't give you the physical punch or 'impact' that the sound waves from a room speaker have; so a slight compensation for increased bass response is needed for natural sound.


Headphones also need to be rolled-off in the highs to compensate for the drivers being so close to the ear; a gently sloping flat line from 1kHz to about 8-10dB down at 20kHz is about right. You'll notice all headphone measurements have a lot of jagged ups & downs (peaks & valleys) in the high frequencies; this is normal and mostly due to reflection cancellations in the folds and ridges in the outer part of the ear. Ideally however, the ups and downs of the frequency response should be fairly small and average out to a flat line. Large peaks or valleys over 3kHz in width usually indicate poor headphone response, and should be viewed as a coloring of the sound. Some small dips in the highs may actually be desirable and should exist in the 2kHz to 8kHz region.
post #30 of 54
Thank You so much Bilavideo! You thought me alot. Just wanted to point out the Shure SE530 has natural bass but rolls off to hard in the treble area though. After 10,000khz it begins to drop past 10db. It should hit a 10db drop off around 20,000khz....correct?
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