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Electrostatic Headphone Amplifiers

post #1 of 49
7/13/09 at 2:56pm
Thread Starter 
Hi to all.

I will soon buy a STAX Headphone (dunno if the SR-404 or the SR-4070 or both) and i was thinking about the SRM-006tII as amp. Reading the various posts of this forum i noticed that there are some other Headphone amplifier for Electrostatic Headphones produced by other company, but on the web there are like a lack of info about those amps.
So... what are the headphone amplifiers around which works good with STAX Headphone ?
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post #2 of 49
7/13/09 at 5:27pm
One of these maybe?
HeadAmp KGBH SE
Woo Audio WES
RSA A-10

They are in a different price segment than the SRM-007tII, but should run circles around it sound wise as well.
I have heard neither of them, so this is just based on other peoples writing and pictures.
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post #3 of 49
7/13/09 at 5:33pm
Woo GES and HeadAmp KGSS are more reasonably priced alternatives.

Using these names should help you get started with gathering the info but there is not really much to find. Of course there are many knowledgeable members here, and maybe based on Stax you'll have better luck, but I've been looking for comparisons in combination with the HE60. There really are very few places with info.
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post #4 of 49
7/13/09 at 5:34pm
Thread Starter 
i bet that for different you mean higher price...
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post #5 of 49
7/14/09 at 10:30am
To amplify the OPs question:


I'm getting used to, and liking, the O2 Mk.2 / 007TII combo, and yet I keep reading that you can do so much better than Stax's own amps.

Can anyone quantify that difference / improvement? What changes if you go to aftermarket stat amps? And what's the take on each aftermarket amp - KGSS, GES, BHSE, etc. What does each bring to the table?

Is it really that much of a difference between a standard Stax amp and something from Woo or Justin, or is it a "Head-Fi difference", meaning significant to those here, but, in the grand scheme of things to most listeners, a rather small improvement?

I ask for the simple reason that for the $5k of a Blue Hawaii or a WES from Woo, I can buy a John Deere lawn tractor, some good loudspeakers, or, better still, a whole lotta food.

Is it worth it?

(Answering, "It depends upon your priorities," isn't allowed. In a life bounded by the void on one side and death on the other, there actually are some absolutes; answer straightforwardly, as if your life was on the line, since, in a sense, it always is, even with seemingly minor consumer choices. )
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post #6 of 49
7/14/09 at 10:44am
At my first HF meet, I randomly tried the 4070 from a Stax amp; I think it was the 007. I thought it was horrible.

At my second HF meet, I tried it from an ES-1, which is supposed to be not quite as good as the current batch of top tier amps. It sounded like a totally different headphone, and I was shocked at how much better it was. The difference may have been more extreme than going from a HD650 via iPod to HD650 via my current source/amp.

I've never actually heard the O2 from a Stax amp, but I guess those particular phones are retardedly difficult to drive. The difference should be extreme.
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post #7 of 49
7/14/09 at 11:42am
A better amp will bring you more voltage swing and the current to back it up plus other nice things such as a lower output impedance, higher slew rate etc. The biggest change with the SR-007 is in the bass since it is much tighter and extends deeper but the soundstage is also wider/deeper, the midrange more pronounced (in a natural way) and the top end a lot less rolled off.

Now for the technical bit, more voltage swing will give you greater dynamics but voltage swing is useless without the current to back it up. When the impedance of the phones dips down (which it will do) then the amp has to supply more current to maintain a stable voltage level into said load. That's where large tubes and huge heatsinks come into the picture.

Power isn't everything though and depending on what you listen to and how, you might not need it. Second, price means nothing, the whole Single Power mess should be a lesson to us all. Any manufacturer that tries to hide what's inside the amp or throws up some patent pending crap should fall under extreme scrutiny or even be sidestepped all together. While I can appreciate manufacturers trying to protect their ideas and such, the truth is that there are very few new things in audio and outright fraud is so often the real reason things are hidden. Companies such as Madrigal post huge 40MB pictures of the insides of their equipment (good enough to read most labels and markings) so why should headphone amps be any different?

Volumes have been written about comparisons between these amps and there isn't much to add but you have to decide what you are looking for. Do you want a DC-coupled amp which is basically wire with gain (KGBH, KGSS, 717) or an AC coupled amp which has a slightly colored take on things (WES, rebuilt ES-1). That group is really split in two since we have the Aristaeus and the Woo GES which have lower output power so not really suitable for the SR-007 playing Megadeth but work well with other phones.
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post #8 of 49
7/14/09 at 12:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atothex View Post
At my first HF meet, I randomly tried the 4070 from a Stax amp; I think it was the 007. I thought it was horrible.
and i want to pair it with a 006tII....
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post #9 of 49
7/14/09 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan_McCloud View Post
and i want to pair it with a 006tII....
I honestly do not remember which amp I heard, and of course, not all Stax amps are created equal. I just wanted to reaffirm that amps can make a HUGE difference, even to noobs. Funny that Spritzer keeps talking about Megadeth, because that's the first thing I tried with the 4070s at that first meet. It was the original Countdown to Extinction: a rather bright, thin album. I was not feeling it at all...
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post #10 of 49
7/14/09 at 1:05pm
Using Megadeth as a reference is an old joke from back when the Meier HE90's were arriving. I'm more partial to Iron Maiden myself and the DVD-A of Dance of Death will make many amps run to the hills. Let's just say that my Egmont has been on leave since I tested it...
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post #11 of 49
7/14/09 at 1:17pm
A few things, Duncan,

1) Spritzer is probably one of the top 10 individuals in the world to speak to about electrostatic headphones. We are lucky to have him, and you would do well to listen to him, even if you disagree with him.

2) If you're considering buying the SR-404 AND the 4070, I would suggest you stop first and look at your other options. The SR-404 are not the "top of the line" lambda headphones, despite being the most expensive of the current lineup. Stax lambda Signature, Lambda Nova Signature, or normal bias Lambda are more commonly considered to be the best lambda designs.

3) If you're going to spend the money anyhow, why not just buy an Omega 2? It's better than any lambda.

4) Headphones are the cheap part, if you're really interested in going all out. Sources and amps are where the money goes. Do you, realistically, have a budget here? Most aficionados here could build you a $10,000 system off the top of their head. Are you looking for the best under $5,000? $2,000? $500? If you spend it all on the headphones, you might end up underwhelmed.
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post #12 of 49
7/14/09 at 1:46pm
I still don't quite get this anti-SRM-007t stance. When I'm listening transfixed to say female vocals, nobody can tell me that this is a bad amp, but I'm sure it can be bettered.

The frequently stated comment is the lack of power to drive O2s. Which seems to result in reduced dynamics compared to the preferred alternatives. Fair enough, but there are so many other parameters to musical enjoyment: I consider transparency and naturalness to be more important than dynamics and I wonder how the posher amps compare on these points.

I'm not lucky enough to have tried these other amps, or even the 717, but I've read the occasional comment that the 007t is better than the 717 on transparency and openness and 717 is better on bass punch and dynamics - i.e. showing the typical stengths/weaknesses of tube v transistor amps.
So to me that says that these two are overall about equal and it just depends on the listener's priorities.

I'd like to re-iterate greggf's question, as I'm interested in upgrading to BHSE or it's rivals, but how to get to a short list if I have little chance of auditioning any of them in the UK or seeing them in the flesh?

BTW, when I upgraded from SRM-006t/SR-404 to SRM-007t/O2.1, I briefly tried them the "wrong way round". For me, the O2.1 with the smaller amp was considerably better than the other combination, despite the presumably even lower power capabilities of the 006t.

Regarding the SR-404, I upgraded to this from a Basic package (SR-202 with smallest amp). I didn't really get on with the SR-404 because of it's often mentioned mid range hump. On some music it was fine, but once noticed the issue, I simply couldn't live with it. I should have just gone straight to the O2.
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post #13 of 49
7/14/09 at 2:06pm
Thread Starter 
As source i have a Marantz SA8003, not the best Source out there but sure a good one. Actually i am using a Marantz PM8003 as 'Headphone Amplifier' with Ultrasone PRO 2500. It's quite obvious that this solution sux (using an integrated speaker amp's headphone out as Headphone amplifier is not good imo).
To be honest my first idea was to buy a Beresford TC-7520 and use this with my PC as a second rig. But then i started to think and think about it more and more.
Why spending 200€ fora a very little improvement? Why not waiting some months (even till the end of the year) and save money for a big jumps into electrostatic world ?
So for a jump in this world i noticed that:
1) STAX SR-4040 Signature System II for ~ £1200 (nice for a fist try)
But all of a sudden i thought: I already have an Open Back Headphone, why not going for a closed Back one ?
2) STAX SR-4070 + SRM-006tII for ~ £2600 (this is expensive damn)
and ofc i thought too about
3) STAX OMEGA REFERENCE SYSTEM MKII for ~ £3000 (this is expensive damn)

Bad things is that is really imossible to hear them in italy.
Now i am really killing the forum with a lot of question cause i really don't know what to do. Sure i'll wait till the end of the year, so i'll prolly have a better idea about what i want. Ofc if a am going to waste money or to do a big mistake i'd like to hear: "Stop you retard, what you are doing is nonsense".

About the money issue i have not unlimited badget, i'd like to spend at max £3600 (€3000, $4200), but if you say that with a 4040 system (or one of the lambda you suggested, but those are out of production right?) i'll do a really huge jump sure i'll go for it, and maybe i'll think in improving it (O2-4070-007tII) in the future and only if i will really need it.

P.S.
When did i disagree with Spritzer? if i have to be honest his reply was a little techincal and complicated for me , i only pointed out that my idea WAS to pair 4070 with a 006tII, thinking that does headphone would have done good anyway. But ofc this doesn't seems to be a nice solutions
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post #14 of 49
7/14/09 at 2:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAttorney View Post
I should have just gone straight to the O2.
mmm. Interesting reply thanks
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post #15 of 49
7/14/09 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAttorney View Post
I still don't quite get this anti-SRM-007t stance... I'm not lucky enough to have tried these other amps, or even the 717, but I've read...
I don't want to seem like a jerk, here, attorney, because you have excellent gear. I hope nothing on here has led you to believe that you don't.

Most people on here listen to gear at meets, but that's more difficult in some places than others. Others are just really committed enthusiasts, like Spritzer, and spend boatloads of cash to hear/build everything. Those who aren't in a position to do either are limited to reading others' experiences, which I'm sure led to your frustration.

Point is, other people's opinions aren't always compatible with your own, and amps certainly aren't the same between headphones.

If I remember correctly, the 006T is an almost identical amp to the SRM-T1, which is one of the best amps Stax ever produced. Despite being a lower model number, it is a better amp than the SRM-007T. It's also a better amp, for most applications, than the SRM-006T II, and the SRM-007 T II. Go figure. Stax is strange that way.
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