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cyroparts don't understand their own process? - Page 2

post #16 of 139
PJ's FUN TIME WITH LN2

There is one thing I know for sure. The cryogenic process allowed me to flash freeze goldfish into suspended animation and then bring them back to life. I did this in 6th grade. It really put a smile on everyone's face. There was a pretty good survival rate, too. 8 out of 10 lived. The 2 that died were kept in the LN2 too long. You could only keep them in the LN2 for 10 - 12 seconds or cell death would occur. To revive them I simply dropped them back in the fish bowl and they immediately started doing whatever it is fish do.

Anyone who hasn't done this and has a supply of LN2 handy must give it a whirl. If you have kids, their jaws will drop in astonishment right before they break out in a fit of happy hysteria.
post #17 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berlioz View Post
Ferrous metals typically contain a solid solution called austentite. This is one of the weakest, softest alloy phases of iron. If rapidly cooled, this solution undergoes a process known as Martensitic Transformation, which turns the austentite into martensite. For many applications, martensite has superior properties (increased tensile strength, increased hardness, increased conductivity), so cryogenically treated steels are often found in medical and military equipment.

The lifespan of the metals are also greatly increased. Back in high school, I used to work at a largish metal fabrication plant with many assembly lines. I remember all the drill bits on the machines were made of cryo treated alloys.

Here's where it gets interesting though. There is no way of explaining how cryogenic treatment would (positively) affect copper, or any other metal that does not contain austentite for that matter.

Test results seem to go back and forth on the issue depending on whether a cryo engineering company funded the study or not. However, there have been some tests by independent research groups that have found cryogenic treating improves the durability and wear resistance of other metals, namely brass, copper, and aluminum.

This process is not well understood, but the benefits of it have definitely been observed in practical tests. I'm not a cable believer, and I don't understand how even increased conductivity could benefit a cable only a metre long, but there's no doubt in my mind that cryogenic treating could at least produce more durable copper wiring. In fact, if I had to pick something, I would pick cryo treating over any of the esoteric braids or other weird metal combos found in some speaker wires.

Absolutely zero research validates any of Cryoparts statements. I understand that it wouldn't be very impressive to say "cryogenic treatment improves our wires, although we can't explain how", so they may have just thrown in some techno babble there. For what it's worth, their cables should be better than untreated ones, at least in terms of durability.
Well, yes. And you see, if this was what was on cryoparts (or any other cryotreatment company's) web site, there would be considerably less complaint as to what they do and how. However, this is not really what they say. It is especially unfortunate that they claim a difference to the sound.

Why should bogus claims be needed for the upsell if there was actual truth to the changes?
post #18 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
The cryogenic process allowed me to flash freeze goldfish into suspended animation and then bring them back to life.
[..]
If you have kids, their jaws will drop
yeah, does it work w/ kids too?
post #19 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan777 View Post
I might have gotten something wrong, being a physics major doesn't mean I get everything right- ovbiously However, I do not believe temperature has any *meaningful* (sorry for not clarifying before) effect on atomic bonds at the temperatures we are talking about. Molecular, yes, atomic no. You have to get into the millions of degrees to have enough energy to significantly affect the atomic bonds of copper.

This all seems like an insignificant issue to most, but what bothers me is the fact that they claim to understand exactly how their 'cryo' process works, how it improves sound, and the fact that they berate other anonymous competitor's who "sell cryo-treated audio parts do not have an intimate knowledge of the DCT process." I'm not questioning the personal integrity of anyone here, and I'm not even making any hard claims about cryo, I'm just skeptical, and this apparent confusion about temperature doesn't seem to bode well for them.

I would be glad if the cryoparts people looked at this, and either explained why I'm wrong or corrected their description.

And like I say, temperature can have an affect on atomic bonds, but not significantly at the temperatures we are talking about (from what I can see), let alone significantly enough to modify the acoustics of the signal that is carried through the copper.

At the very least, this is getting me more familiar with chemistry.
They don't have to correct their explanation, many scientists have used the same exact degree of literary license of calling molecular level changes atomic level changes. Not even your beloved scientists know exactly how DCT works, and if you read scientific papers on deep cryo treatment and had any critical reading skills you wouldn't be whining about cryo-parts. I have some field work for you, my would be physicist. Instead of saying deep cryo treatment doesn't make sense to you within your limited understanding of the matter, why don't you actually research it. I think it's cute you are pattering on this forum for people to enlighten you, but deep cryo treatment is (gasp) one of a great multitude of things for which science hasn't given a satisfactory explanation. And the only way you will be able to realize that fact is to stop beseeching authority for answers and do some research yourself.
post #20 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
yeah, does it work w/ kids too?
Not at this time. Try back in 50 years.
post #21 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
PJ's FUN TIME WITH LN2

There is one thing I know for sure. The cryogenic process allowed me to flash freeze goldfish into suspended animation and then bring them back to life. I did this in 6th grade. It really put a smile on everyone's face. There was a pretty good survival rate, too. 8 out of 10 lived. The 2 that died were kept in the LN2 too long. You could only keep them in the LN2 for 10 - 12 seconds or cell death would occur. To revive them I simply dropped them back in the fish bowl and they immediately started doing whatever it is fish do.

Anyone who hasn't done this and has a supply of LN2 handy must give it a whirl. If you have kids, their jaws will drop in astonishment right before they break out in a fit of happy hysteria.
I am frankly apalled that anyone would do this especally when 2/10 died. I daresay that goldfish are small fry in the scheme of things but to deliberately do something that has a good chance of killing living creatures purely for entertainment is atrocious and to encourage others to do so is unconscionable.
post #22 of 139
Well obviously I didn't want any to die, and there was no deliberate intention of killing any of them. So I guess you don't feel that medical research done on mice is ethical, even if we learn some valuable ways to treat human diseases which could possibly save a member of your own family.

I don't know where you came up with the conclusion that I was doing something for entertainment that had a good chance of killing them. It was a science project and demonstrated that certain organisms can be placed into suspended animation and revived without ill effect to 100% of the group when done properly. As I already stated, the ones that died died as a result of leaving them in the LN2 too long which wasn't conclusively known to me before the experiment.
post #23 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
I don't know where you came up with the conclusion that I was doing something for entertainment


Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
Anyone who hasn't done this and has a supply of LN2 handy must give it a whirl. If you have kids, their jaws will drop in astonishment right before they break out in a fit of happy hysteria.
Looks like entertainment to me.
post #24 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
So I guess you don't feel that medical research done on mice is ethical, even if we learn some valuable ways to treat human diseases which could possibly save a member of your own family.
Don't equate a parlour trick with medical research, for the record I do believe that medical research that uses animals is unethical.
post #25 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berlioz View Post
Even if someone majored in chemistry, they could very well have no idea about how the cryo process works. Organic chemistry is arguably one of the most difficult branches, and has been a brickwall for many science major hopefuls, but I doubt an organic chem major would know anything about materials science.

The science behind cryo treatment is really only understood for ferrous metals or metals with a high carbon content. I think before I continue I should note that I'm a microbio/biochem major, not a physics major, but I've taken an interest in this so I'll try to explain it as best I can.

Ferrous metals typically contain a solid solution called austentite. This is one of the weakest, softest alloy phases of iron. If rapidly cooled, this solution undergoes a process known as Martensitic Transformation, which turns the austentite into martensite. For many applications, martensite has superior properties (increased tensile strength, increased hardness, increased conductivity), so cryogenically treated steels are often found in medical and military equipment.
Err, I thought this eutectoid (as the name suggests) reaction occurred at high temperature only?
post #26 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
Don't equate a parlour trick with medical research, for the record I do believe that medical research that uses animals is unethical.
Hey, that's cool. I'm sure there are plenty of research teams that wouldn't mind a nice, warm human body for testing. Sign on the dotted line, please.
post #27 of 139
if trying w/ kids is unethical, how about trying w/ kittens?
post #28 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
if trying w/ kids is unethical, how about trying w/ kittens?
My kind of humor!

Meow. Meow. Meow. Meow. Shatter.

Lolcats say: I haz ben cryo treetd.
post #29 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
My kind of humor!

Meow. Meow. Meow. Meow. Shatter.

Lolcats say: I haz ben cryo treetd.
But those Meows sound AWESOME!
post #30 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilney View Post
Err, I thought this eutectoid (as the name suggests) reaction occurred at high temperature only?
It can occur at high temperatures as well. This is why some metals are heat treated. This reaction also occurs with a rapid decrease in temperature though. Just two different ways to achieve the same result.
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