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cyroparts don't understand their own process?

post #1 of 139
Thread Starter 
I was reading Cryoparts website, specifically the part entitled "Why Cryo?" In it, they say,

"Deep cryogenic treatment works at the atomic level; research indicates that as the temperature decreases the atomic bonds start to weaken and the crystal structure of Copper reverts to its original state and removes these stresses."

This is an obvious and basic misunderstanding of what temperature is and what the "crystal structures" are. Temperature doesn't affect anything at the "atomic level," it only affects things at the molecular scale (unless you were talking about plasma, but we aren't talking about that, and that's in the millions of degrees usually). Also, molecules form crystal structures/lattices, not atoms.

I think you should know that just from high-school physics. I'm a physics major at college though and have done plasma research before, so this really jumped out at me. This all isn't to say that cryo doesn't work (though I doubt it does anything for cables), but its clear that... well, in cryoparts own words,

"Many who sell cryo-treated audio parts do not have an intimate knowledge of the DCT process."

Yes, yes indeed.
post #2 of 139
Also consider the price of cryoed parts. The price they want compared to the actual cost tells you a lot about what they're up to.
post #3 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
Also consider the price of cryoed parts. The price they want compared to the actual cost tells you a lot about what they're up to.
Come on, Eric. That's an unfair assumption and rather accusatory of products you haven't even heard (except for maybe a few minutes). I also doubt if you met the man face to face you would believe he is trying to mislead you or rip you off. I don't claim to understand the process in detail but I do own several items from Lee and his cables are among the best I've come across.


And spartan777,
Don't you think it's a little rude to slam someone before you have spoken to him personally and asked him about the process? I don't think you'll get the support you are looking for here.
post #4 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPodPJ View Post
Come on, Eric. That's an unfair assumption and rather accusatory of products you haven't even heard (except for maybe a few minutes). I also doubt if you met the man face to face you would believe he is trying to mislead you or rip you off. I don't claim to understand the process in detail but I do own several items from Lee and his cables are among the best I've come across.


And spartan777,
Don't you think it's a little rude to slam someone before you have spoken to him personally and asked him about the process? I don't think you'll get the support you are looking for here.
He is trying to tell head-fiers the truth. If he has enough support for his words, I don't see any wrong with that.
post #5 of 139
Nice spartan!

Prepare for some flaming, though. Some people will come telling you cryo is the best since sharks with laser beams attached to their heads
post #6 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan777 View Post
This is an obvious and basic misunderstanding of what temperature is and what the "crystal structures" are. Temperature doesn't affect anything at the "atomic level," it only affects things at the molecular scale (unless you were talking about plasma, but we aren't talking about that, and that's in the millions of degrees usually). Also, molecules form crystal structures/lattices, not atoms.
Sorry but I'm not sure where you get the above statements (which I have bolded). The first statement is plainly incorrect. And for the second, we're talking about metals here.
post #7 of 139
The issue is that Cryoparts have an incorrect description of the effect, not a discussion of whether it's effective or not. Lee is on Head-fi as "guitarplayer" from memory. You might wish to alert him to the error. Otherwise, if you don't believe his products are any good, then don't buy them. Simple enough.
post #8 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
The issue is that Cryoparts have an incorrect description of the effect, not a discussion of whether it's effective or not. Lee is on Head-fi as "guitarplayer" from memory. You might wish to alert him to the error. Otherwise, if you don't believe his products are any good, then don't buy them. Simple enough.
Notwithstanding whether Cryoparts have got it right or not. I think the OP's explanation of why they have got it wrong doesn't make sense.
post #9 of 139
Are you sure you're a physics major and not a semantics major? Obviously when they said atomic level they were exercising poetic license, just look at the words that come after "atomic level" in what you quoted. But hey if you still get the impression they were talking about photons and electrons we should definitely ask them to rectify post haste!
post #10 of 139
Considering metals such as copper do not even form molecules, but instead exist as nuclei in a sea of electrons, perhaps they are more correct than you are, Spartan!

I never did too well in physics myself, but I did excel in chemistry
post #11 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Doug View Post
Considering metals such as copper do not even form molecules, but instead exist as nuclei in a sea of electrons, perhaps they are more correct than you are, Spartan!

I never did too well in physics myself, but I did excel in chemistry
So which atomic (or microcrystal, or ...) level changes do you see copper undergoing when its temperature is lowered from say 20C to -200C ? Any bonds you see weakening in the process? Especially atomic (literal or not) ones? Inquiring minds would also like to know what the original state of copper might be, and why copper reverts (in whatever form, given the nuclei in a sea of electrons nature you outlined) to it at very low temperatures. Surely you learned enough about the structure of metals in chemistry to answer such simple things about the claims of cryoparts?
post #12 of 139
Uhh buddie, I can tell you for sure that temperature is one of the ONLY things that effect atoms at the atomic level. Take a class in matter physics or take some p-chem before you graduate.
post #13 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderx View Post
So which atomic (or microcrystal, or ...) level changes do you see copper undergoing when its temperature is lowered from say 20C to -200C ? Any bonds you see weakening in the process? Especially atomic (literal or not) ones? Inquiring minds would also like to know what the original state of copper might be, and why copper reverts (in whatever form, given the nuclei in a sea of electrons nature you outlined) to it at very low temperatures. Surely you learned enough about the structure of metals in chemistry to answer such simple things about the claims of cryoparts?
that kind of stuff is taught primarily in materials science - especially any electrical or mechanical benefits to different types of crystal formation. that knowledge is beyond me, sadly.

i too would love to know!
post #14 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Tarlow View Post
Uhh buddie, I can tell you for sure that temperature is one of the ONLY things that effect atoms at the atomic level. Take a class in matter physics or take some p-chem before you graduate.
I might have gotten something wrong, being a physics major doesn't mean I get everything right- ovbiously However, I do not believe temperature has any *meaningful* (sorry for not clarifying before) effect on atomic bonds at the temperatures we are talking about. Molecular, yes, atomic no. You have to get into the millions of degrees to have enough energy to significantly affect the atomic bonds of copper.

This all seems like an insignificant issue to most, but what bothers me is the fact that they claim to understand exactly how their 'cryo' process works, how it improves sound, and the fact that they berate other anonymous competitor's who "sell cryo-treated audio parts do not have an intimate knowledge of the DCT process." I'm not questioning the personal integrity of anyone here, and I'm not even making any hard claims about cryo, I'm just skeptical, and this apparent confusion about temperature doesn't seem to bode well for them.

I would be glad if the cryoparts people looked at this, and either explained why I'm wrong or corrected their description.

And like I say, temperature can have an affect on atomic bonds, but not significantly at the temperatures we are talking about (from what I can see), let alone significantly enough to modify the acoustics of the signal that is carried through the copper.

At the very least, this is getting me more familiar with chemistry.
post #15 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderx View Post
So which atomic (or microcrystal, or ...) level changes do you see copper undergoing when its temperature is lowered from say 20C to -200C ? Any bonds you see weakening in the process? Especially atomic (literal or not) ones? Inquiring minds would also like to know what the original state of copper might be, and why copper reverts (in whatever form, given the nuclei in a sea of electrons nature you outlined) to it at very low temperatures. Surely you learned enough about the structure of metals in chemistry to answer such simple things about the claims of cryoparts?
Even if someone majored in chemistry, they could very well have no idea about how the cryo process works. Organic chemistry is arguably one of the most difficult branches, and has been a brickwall for many science major hopefuls, but I doubt an organic chem major would know anything about materials science.

The science behind cryo treatment is really only understood for ferrous metals or metals with a high carbon content. I think before I continue I should note that I'm a microbio/biochem major, not a physics major, but I've taken an interest in this so I'll try to explain it as best I can.

Ferrous metals typically contain a solid solution called austentite. This is one of the weakest, softest alloy phases of iron. If rapidly cooled, this solution undergoes a process known as Martensitic Transformation, which turns the austentite into martensite. For many applications, martensite has superior properties (increased tensile strength, increased hardness, increased conductivity), so cryogenically treated steels are often found in medical and military equipment.

The lifespan of the metals are also greatly increased. Back in high school, I used to work at a largish metal fabrication plant with many assembly lines. I remember all the drill bits on the machines were made of cryo treated alloys.

Here's where it gets interesting though. There is no way of explaining how cryogenic treatment would (positively) affect copper, or any other metal that does not contain austentite for that matter.

Test results seem to go back and forth on the issue depending on whether a cryo engineering company funded the study or not. However, there have been some tests by independent research groups that have found cryogenic treating improves the durability and wear resistance of other metals, namely brass, copper, and aluminum.

This process is not well understood, but the benefits of it have definitely been observed in practical tests. I'm not a cable believer, and I don't understand how even increased conductivity could benefit a cable only a metre long, but there's no doubt in my mind that cryogenic treating could at least produce more durable copper wiring. In fact, if I had to pick something, I would pick cryo treating over any of the esoteric braids or other weird metal combos found in some speaker wires.

Absolutely zero research validates any of Cryoparts statements. I understand that it wouldn't be very impressive to say "cryogenic treatment improves our wires, although we can't explain how", so they may have just thrown in some techno babble there. For what it's worth, their cables should be better than untreated ones, at least in terms of durability.
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