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One for you cable fans! - Page 3

post #31 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Sorry, I can't force myself to substantively respond to this, and to point out what I see as logical flaws (and additional veiled insults). Among other things, you and some others see everything as black and white, and are unwilling to consider anything that doesn't fit your dogmatic position.

My point was that the initial post was apparently intended to be insulting. I should have pointed that out and left it at that, instead of trying to explain the obvious.

I have to remember that I have to be careful about who I engage in a dialogue, and in what threads I engage in a dialogue. Some of these threads, and some of the participants, are just too aggravating.
Quote of the day:
Don't argue with stupid people. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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post #32 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi View Post
Yeah. Gotta have a little yang along with your yin.

k
On a completely unrelated tangent when I saw your namesake film I drove my family crazy for a few days saying Koyaanisqatsi around the house in that low mantra voice over and over again. They had no idea what it meant or why I was saying it.
Good fun.
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post #33 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderx View Post
There are lots of CD players that measure considerably differently and these no doubt also sound differently - especially if you compare those that are by now severly outdated and modern ones. Or just really cut-throat, asian mass produced wonders... The frequency response and distortions (and hence, sound) will rather directly depend on the digital analog conversions and filtration (if any) used, as well as how well the analog and digital parts are isolated. Oversampling and good filtration killed all of the issues and the various "analoguer" and "anti-digitalitis" products went the way of the dodo.

Now, if you want to say you can tell two modern cd players with > 105db signal/noise and less than 0.01% thd+n apart (or for that matter, apart from a sacd player playing the same cd)... now that would require rigorous proof. Because the noise signature is beoynd what has been proven to be audible.
One measurement where I consistently see differences among CD players and DACs is Stereophile's undithered 1kHz waveform at -90dB. Some products can clearly reproduce the stair step waveform; others are a noisy mess. Compare this Bryston:


With a Playstation series 1:
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post #34 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
you and some others see everything as black and white, and are unwilling to consider anything that doesn't fit your dogmatic position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Both of those DAC's easily meet those specs. They do not sound alike. Any contention that they do is silly, IMO.
Saying "any contention that [the DAC2 and ECD-1 sound alike] is silly" is very much being unwilling to consider anything that doesn't fit your dogmatic position. At least if someone showed me proof I'd be convinced, whereas it seems nothing will convince you - that's the definition of being closed minded.
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post #35 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees View Post
Quote of the day:
Don't argue with stupid people. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Right, I'm the one being insulting.
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post #36 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Man of Genius View Post
On a completely unrelated tangent when I saw your namesake film I drove my family crazy for a few days saying Koyaanisqatsi around the house in that low mantra voice over and over again. They had no idea what it meant or why I was saying it.
Good fun.
Hahahah!

Yeah, always fun to keep your family guessing as to your sanity.

"Honey, I'm home!"



k
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post #37 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
I know I have extensive experience with the Bel Canto DAC 2 and the Electrocompanient ECD-1. Both of those DAC's easily meet those specs. They do not sound alike. Any contention that they do is silly, IMO.
Phils, you keep using the same argument over and over. And that argument keeps being invalid.

You just say without holding back "They do not sound alike.", but you say nothing else to prove it, or even to explain why. Then what you are saying is actually seen by me /and others as a simple opinion, that can be as valid as anyone's opinion.

If you think about it, someone with the same equipment as yours can say "They do not sound alike" and his answer should be treated at first hand in the same way as yours, but upon further research (data, measurements, etc), his opinions will be proven right and yours will remain as an opinion.
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post #38 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees View Post
Quote of the day:
Don't argue with stupid people. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.




k
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post #39 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcrown View Post
Saying "any contention that [the DAC2 and ECD-1 sound alike] is silly" is very much being unwilling to consider anything that doesn't fit your dogmatic position. At least if someone showed me proof I'd be convinced, whereas it seems nothing will convince you - that's the definition of being closed minded.
I don't intend to respond to you further. I don't think our dialogue on this thread is constructive. No offense.
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post #40 of 129
7/9/09 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
Phils, you keep using the same argument over and over. And that argument keeps being invalid.
It's only invalid to those of you who can't see past the end of their nose and adamantly insist on some type of scientific proof or measurements to establish that anything that sounds different.* I'm sure it's quite valid to people who have extensive experience listening to a variety of CD players or DAC's and have heard the differences.

I don't know what your listening experience is, but if you really think all DAC's or CD players with the aforementioned specs sound the same based on your personal listening trials, good for you. You can save a lot of money. Why buy expensive wine when it all tastes the same to you.

*EDIT: I am willing to consider measurements, and "objective" evidence, as well as what I hear in my evaluations. You seem to be willing to exclude entirely what is heard by the ears, unless the measurements or other objective evidence first say that there can be an audible difference. To me, that's a close-minded approach.
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post #41 of 129
7/9/09 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
*EDIT: I am willing to consider measurements, and "objective" evidence, as well as what I hear in my evaluations. You seem to be willing to exclude entirely what is heard by the ears, unless the measurements or other objective evidence first say that there can be an audible difference.
But you must first establish that something is actually heard by the ears (or more accurately, perceived by the brain via one's ears).

I'm sure no one doubts that you perceive the differences you claim. However asserting opinion as fact does not establish it as fact.

k
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post #42 of 129
7/9/09 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Why buy expensive wine when it all tastes the same to you.
Wine tastes better when the metal hoops that hold the barrels together are silver. I trust my tongue.
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post #43 of 129
7/9/09 at 8:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
It's only invalid to those of you who can't see past the end of their nose and adamantly insist on some type of scientific proof or measurements to establish that anything that sounds different. I'm sure it's quite valid to people who have extensive experience listening to a variety of CD players or DAC's and have heard the differences.

I don't know what your listening experience is, but if you really think all DAC's or CD players with the aforementioned specs sound the same based on your personal listening trials, good for you. You can save a lot of money. Why buy expensive wine when it all tastes the same to you.
Experience can be flawed and your conclusions taken from your experience be wrong.

My listening experience with music is quite extensive. I have been playing the piano for a lot of years (still play it when I have time). I know how instruments sound and I know how to make one (the piano) sound "as I want it to". I have been "training my ears" ever since I put my hands on a piano. However I don't need any of that to understand some measurements that go way beyond my hearing abilities.

I know my ears are not perfect and I know some instruments can measure variations in frequencies I will never be able to hear. I know my mood, the looks of the equipment, price, ... influence on how I perceive some sounds.

There is in fact some music you like to listen to when you are happy, other types when you are sad, and each one of them affects you differently.

If those feelings, sensations vary in everyone's day by day life, then I can't rely on my ears or experience unless I set some kind of test that will limit the senses I use to "only my ears" as well as the sensations (of aesthetics, price, etc...). If I also follow that experience with some data given by equipment more precise than my ears that tells me if there can be an audible difference for me as a human being, it will make my experience valid.

All the rest is just different opinions.
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post #44 of 129
7/9/09 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
If those feelings, sensations vary in everyone's day by day life, then I can't rely on my ears or experience unless I set some kind of test that will limit the senses I use to "only my ears" as well as the sensations (of aesthetics, price, etc...). If I also follow that experience with some data given by equipment more precise than my ears that tells me if there can be an audible difference for me as a human being, it will make my experience valid.
That suggests to me that you allow the measurements to overrule what your ears might be telling you. (I hope I'm interpreting your comments correctly.)

On other hand, if my ears tell me that the measurements are not capturing an audible difference for some reason, I tend to trust my ears.

Why is your approach more reasonable than mine?*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
Experience can be flawed and your conclusions taken from your experience be wrong.
And measurements may not capture everything and scientific knowledge is not perfect or complete.

*Let's keep the discussion related to DAC's and CD players. I'm not talking about cables.
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post #45 of 129
7/9/09 at 8:28pm
I fart in the OP's general direction....
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