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The Opamp thread - Page 306

post #4576 of 4752

"Break in" is a mechanical term that refers to things like speakers or anything using a suspension system like phono cartridges for example.  The term you would use for opamps is burn in, but many people (including myself) believe it is more your brain burning in when it comes to SS electronics.  Now when you talk about about tubes or even capacitors, there is some truth to it (it can actually be proven when you measure the output of the circuit), now an Opamp "breaking/burning in" that is the same as saying the binary output of the opamp's simple circuit will change.  If you think it changes after 40 hours, it would only make sense to say it will still be changing at 400 hours and 4000 hours (which would not be good for any SS electronics).  I know this whole subject has a kind of notorious debate around it, but from an Electrical Engineering student (Jr.) this is my opinion on the subject.

post #4577 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCSUZoSo View Post
 

"Break in" is a mechanical term that refers to things like speakers or anything using a suspension system like phono cartridges for example.  The term you would use for opamps is burn in, but many people (including myself) believe it is more your brain burning in when it comes to SS electronics.  Now when you talk about about tubes or even capacitors, there is some truth to it (it can actually be proven when you measure the output of the circuit), now an Opamp "breaking/burning in" that is the same as saying the binary output of the opamp's simple circuit will change.  If you think it changes after 40 hours, it would only make sense to say it will still be changing at 400 hours and 4000 hours (which would not be good for any SS electronics).  I know this whole subject has a kind of notorious debate around it, but from an Electrical Engineering student (Jr.) this is my opinion on the subject.


Can you imagine the captain of an airliner, telling his passenger after the plane lands in a corn field, that the planes navigation system will work better once it's had a chance to burn in?

The idea that a transistor, op amp or some other solid state electronics degrades in an audible way that fast is just a joke.

post #4578 of 4752

I don't agree or disagree with burn in, I believe I've encountered it, but subjective listening isn't proof given the time frames involved, but I've never been able to measure it.  I do however believe in warm up, not all devices seem to behave the same (IE some don't seem to audibly change), but some do have a subjective difference after 15-30 minutes of idle or low volume playback.

 

For those of you interested in Muses but don't want to invest $50-75 a piece in op-amps try the Muses8920, it's much cheaper but still sounds incredible.  In my application I much prefer the Muses8920 to the Muses02 (I can't use the Muses01 because the rail voltage is too low in this battery powered amp).

post #4579 of 4752

Warm up is a completely different concept from burn in and I do believe in warm up, a tube amp is a great example of that.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avro_Arrow View Post
 


Can you imagine the captain of an airliner, telling his passenger after the plane lands in a corn field, that the planes navigation system will work better once it's had a chance to burn in?

The idea that a transistor, op amp or some other solid state electronics degrades in an audible way that fast is just a joke.

 

 

I was just making a point by saying it would still be changing, I wasn't saying I believe that is the case.

post #4580 of 4752

The way I understand it from CPU burn-in discussions in the past elsewhere, the path on the track or trace can widen by a few atom widths during initial usages depending on what areas of the chip are being used and leaves less resistance for a signal to travel on/in. That was a really an oversimplification, more to do with heat and expansion esp. concerning copper, but the PhDs would argue if it was even possible in theory and the fact they would even discuss it gave it some credence.

 

Headphones and speakers or cone driven sources are a simple matter of loosening up the material(s)  (flexing) so it can travel further and push more air around. Some cone materials are made of composites and can be stiff and may take months of hard usage to break in. Or the lesser materials will fatigue quickly over time and not be as responsive. That an oversimplification too but I don't think anyone will argue about it.

 

Heaven forbid a flame war breaks out on the burn-in subject but this MUSES01 sounded flat and lacked bass on first listen. After 8 hours of continuous operation sounded much better to me. My imagination?  Only needed a few hours of 'warm up' and no more? I don't know but I have gone from wanting to pull it out right away and go back to what I had, to now leaving it in for a while longer.

post #4581 of 4752

Hey guys, I just put an opamp backwards into this 18v cmoy, and i was wondering what to do to fix it. I suspect i fried the opamp, but i wanted to know if i could have fried anything else. Can i just replace the opamp and have everything work again? You can find a diagram of the circuit here.

post #4582 of 4752

It should be fine, opamp is probably toast though but worth trying it anyway.

post #4583 of 4752

Will a pdip8 opamp work in a dip8 rig?

post #4584 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by wes1099 View Post
 

Will a pdip8 opamp work in a dip8 rig?

 

PDIP8 is a type of DIP8.

post #4585 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by wes1099 View Post
 

Will a pdip8 opamp work in a dip8 rig?

http://www.siliconfareast.com/pdip.htm

post #4586 of 4752

Are you people sure about buying MUSES from .cn?

 

They seem to me to be masters of copying and faking just about everything.

 

Or, is it just me....

post #4587 of 4752

Mouser has a couple types from the muses series in stock, including the Muses01.  Definitely not the best price in low quantities however you know they are legit.  Probably more cost effective to get the real one the first time than to get a fake and replace it later.

post #4588 of 4752

In the end, everyone needs to do their due diligence and go with a vendor they feel comfortable with. That said, I did my due diligence and felt very comfortable purchasing both the MUSES 01 and MUSES 02 from the same eBay HK vendor. And in my humble opinion, if what I received are fakes, then they are incredibly good fakes. The MUSES 02 I received is now installed in my Little Dot 1+ and it is giving me the best sound ever. Cheers.

post #4589 of 4752
When I started out I got my fingers burned once or twice..... I now firmly believe that if an OpAmp is being sold for considerably less (taking into account quantity break points/discounts) the the chances are it's not going to be the real deal. Like I said before, there are some great sounding OpAmps out there that are begging to be rebranded and placebo will fill in the gaps.

The only true way to know is to buy from a registered re-seller. Another giveaway is the unique packaging....

post #4590 of 4752
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudHarris View Post

When I started out I got my fingers burned once or twice..... I now firmly believe that if an OpAmp is being sold for considerably less (taking into account quantity break points/discounts) the the chances are it's not going to be the real deal. Like I said before, there are some great sounding OpAmps out there that are begging to be rebranded and placebo will fill in the gaps.

The only true way to know is to buy from a registered re-seller. Another giveaway is the unique packaging....

 

It appears that you are suggesting that I have likely been duped and I probably don't even know it...  To be frank, I find this to be a tad bit insulting... But to each his own. :)

 

However, as I mentioned before, if I buy 500 or more of these chips from Mouser, I would get a significant price break and could easily sell them for around $40 each, and still make a profit. And while I do not know for sure, I strongly doubt that when purchased in such large quantities. each individual chip is going to packaged in such a unique and expensive manner. After all, if I was purchasing them to be incorporated into an audio product, such packaging would be terribly wasteful. So I can see no reason why a legitimate eBay vendor based in the HK couldn't buy a very large quantity of these chips, with no fancy packaging, and resell them for a bit over $40.

 

(And I should note that if eBay discovers that a vendor is selling fakes, they kick him off their system. No reputable vendor would want to take such a risk.)

 

In the end, while I cannot be 100% certain, I seriously doubt that I have been duped, and I am very comfortable with my decision.

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