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Virtual Dynamic Master Series: First Look - Page 5

post #61 of 72
9/30/03 at 6:21pm
Hirsch,
Thanks for the update. Question for you. Maybe you addressed this earlier and I missed it:

Given your experience with these cables, I'm wondering if you can comment any on how they have (if at all) changed your views on the appropriate amounts of system dollars to devote to cables? Clearly you think they are worth the asking price, but to the outside observer, it does seem that their cost is maybe disproportionate to the other components in the signal chain (and any components that are likely to ever be in any of our signal chains!) (Again, I love the VD Cables, I have no doubt they are AWESOME).

I can understand if you don't want to get into a philosophical/economic discussion, but as you have seen, the utility of such cables in a headphone system sort of begs the question in some people's minds (mine, too!).

Do you feel that such cables really are above and beyond your current components in the end or do you feel they are they appropriate to your gear?

Mark
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post #62 of 72
9/30/03 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally posted by markl
I can understand if you don't want to get into a philosophical/economic discussion, but as you have seen, the utility of such cables in a headphone system sort of begs the question in some people's minds (mine, too!).
Headphone systems benefit just as much as speaker system in terms of partnering equipment. ( this includes cabling as they are vital part of a system make up )

I am not advocating expensive cables always sound better but if they work and can afford them why not?
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post #63 of 72
9/30/03 at 7:17pm
Kuma, should have said "typical headphone system". I'm sure Nik would turn up his nose at the low-class Master Series-- I mean, "as if".

I agree headphone systems benefit equally from cable swaps, but it could be argued that there are far more expensive amp/speaker combos as potential partners for the Master Series, clearly VD aren't targeting us headphone geeks with this cables.
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post #64 of 72
9/30/03 at 7:31pm

cable as component

In speaking to Rick of VD last week, he indicated his cables were more than a passive element in a system. They actually have a network of some sort of electronics built in and that the cables do have an influence. I don't agree that they just pass sound but I do think they make the sound-sound that way. Whatever he does, seems to work. Since I have had the SinglePower MPX3, my head system is so revealing that little changes and tweaks are immediately obvious. Going from a HighWire IC to a VD Audition to VD Reference, you can hear the differences in the grade of cable and why the range of cost. All they have ever sounded was great in my system. Going to try the Davids next and hope to be in someone's will for the Masters. Maybe a used pair next year.

Bob
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post #65 of 72
9/30/03 at 7:36pm
Hi Bob,
I'm definitely a VD fan. I've owned just about every cable they make at one time or another, keep trying other cables, keep going back to VD. I'm also very very interested in the Davids. I'm hoping they incorporate at least *some* if not *most* of what's in the Master Series, maybe lower build quality.
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post #66 of 72
9/30/03 at 7:47pm
Hi markl:

I am hooked! I hope the same for the Davids. Rick thought they were superior to last year's Nites.

regards,
Bob
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post #67 of 72
9/30/03 at 8:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by markl
Given your experience with these cables, I'm wondering if you can comment any on how they have (if at all) changed your views on the appropriate amounts of system dollars to devote to cables? Clearly you think they are worth the asking price, but to the outside observer, it does seem that their cost is maybe disproportionate to the other components in the signal chain (and any components that are likely to ever be in any of our signal chains!) (Again, I love the VD Cables, I have no doubt they are AWESOME).

I can understand if you don't want to get into a philosophical/economic discussion, but as you have seen, the utility of such cables in a headphone system sort of begs the question in some people's minds (mine, too!).

Do you feel that such cables really are above and beyond your current components in the end or do you feel they are they appropriate to your gear?

Mark
I've never really responded to any question about whether cost was proportional, as it never made sense to me. If it works, then you look at the cost and the sonic changes, and make a decision. If the cost is out of line with the cost of the rest of the components in the system, what does it matter? Some pieces of equipment are inherently more costly than others. Any piece assembled by hand is going to cost more than one machine assembled. Point to Point wiring is going to cost more than a pcb. Low sales volume components are going to cost more per unit than high sales volume components...and none of this has anything to do with sound! If someone builds a $50 headphone that can outperform the R10, I'll use it even if it does make the cost ratios in my system look even loonier.

Given the improvement the Master Series has made in my system, I think the cables are worth the price to be used with the components I currently own. I also feel that they will maintain value should any of those components be upgraded...but I'm not in a great hurry to upgrade anything. I feel that I've got a good set of components that works together well, and some "upgrades" could easily take the sound in a direction I don't want to go.
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post #68 of 72
9/30/03 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by markl
I agree headphone systems benefit equally from cable swaps, but it could be argued that there are far more expensive amp/speaker combos as potential partners for the Master Series, clearly VD aren't targeting us headphone geeks with this cables.
A price of kit do not necessarily equate to a good fidelity. We are quick to assume more expensive the gear, they should sound good. Alas, that's not always.

There are quite a few speakers/amps systems that I would rather listen to my humble headphone rig.

As far as *how* funds should be allocated between components really varies by listeners' priority and situation.

Only few spicialised hi-end producers would target head-fiers as thier principal audience since the universe is even smaller than *regular * audiophiles. Even within the head-fier universe, they are typically young and have a limited disposal income and headphones are used primarily for portable purpose. ( meaning spiciality audio manufactueres need to sell their produts by a large quantity to make any sort of profit to keep the retail cost down to appeal to those guys)

An efficacy of cables do not depend on what type of transducers used, it really doesn't make sense to market *wire* as for headphone use exclusively.
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post #69 of 72
9/30/03 at 8:58pm
Quote:
I've never really responded to any question about whether cost was proportional, as it never made sense to me. If it works, then you look at the cost and the sonic changes, and make a decision.
Hirsch,
Perfectly reasonable response.

Quote:
A price of kit do not necessarily equate to a good fidelity. We are quick to assume more expensive the gear, they should sound good. Alas, that's not always.
Kuma,
Of course!

Quote:
As far as *how* funds should be allocated between components really varies by listeners' priority and situation.
Again, of course. But still, you would have to admit, it's unusual (without making any judgements about it) to have such nice cables that cost as much or more than any of the other gear in the system. A glowing review like this so carefully put together suggests a recommendation is being made to do likewise, I don't think it's an irrelevant question, in fact it jumps right out to be asked IMO (which I did and got a reasonable reply). A discussion of the price seems unavoidable (although I didn't help in avoiding it ).

For me, I think I'd rather have $2K more source than $2K more cables, that's my own calculus. Then again, I haven't heard the Master Series, and it could well change my mind.
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post #70 of 72
9/30/03 at 10:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by markl

Again, of course. But still, you would have to admit, it's unusual (without making any judgements about it) to have such nice cables that cost as much or more than any of the other gear in the system. A glowing review like this so carefully put together suggests a recommendation is being made to do likewise, I don't think it's an irrelevant question, in fact it jumps right out to be asked IMO (which I did and got a reasonable reply). A discussion of the price seems unavoidable (although I didn't help in avoiding it ).

For me, I think I'd rather have $2K more source than $2K more cables, that's my own calculus. Then again, I haven't heard the Master Series, and it could well change my mind.
Basically, I've stated that so far I love the Master Series in my system. I would go so far as to say that if you like the earlier Virtual Dynamics cables, the improvement will stun you (based on my listening so far). I'll do a full review after I've had more time with them and done more extensive comparisons with the Nites. It's more complicated that simply switching cables, as these cables really do need to be in system for a period of time to perform optimally. Switching back and forth just doesn't work.

BTW, $2K is only for one of the cables. You've got to multiply if you want two power cords and a set of interconnects. I don't know if I will be able to afford to buy the power cord review samples. I do know that I want to. (I already own the interconnects, as an upgrade from the prototype I had).
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post #71 of 72
10/1/03 at 1:07am
Quote:
Originally posted by markl
Again, of course. But still, you would have to admit, it's unusual (without making any judgements about it) to have such nice cables that cost as much or more than any of the other gear in the system.
Only if one is hung up about it. (Not meant as a personal attack, Mark, it's just that this misconception comes up a lot.)

I mean, let's look at Hirsch's US$15 source -- it sounded pretty good. What if modding it himself could bring it up to the level of the Creek (or perhaps any higher end source -- dCS, Meridian, etc.)? Now, what if those mods cost US$1K? (Like, say taking it out of its case and completely reworking it, including reclocking it, point-to-point wiring except the O/S/BIOS, etc.) Does it matter how he got his cost-no-object source, even if it did end up being on the cheap?

Tweakers, in particular, have a hard time of it. Because usually the cumulative cost of the tweaks end up being more than the item being tweaked, especially in the cases where the initial unit was inexpensive to begin with. (Townsend Audio, I think, have a mod for one of the Pioneer universal players that costs 10x the cost of the original player. Think about that.)

Just thinking out loud, (regurgitive) food for thought, no real answers...
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post #72 of 72
10/1/03 at 2:39am

I should be working...

I talked to Rick also on this question of cost in proportion to a system and he thought that his 2k Masters could make a 10K system sound like a 70k system and they were as good as an 18K cable(forget the name;exotic sounding.) Using this train of thinking, the costs of the Masters is insignificant. I don't know about this because because Rick is an enthuiastic guy;great guy great salesman and this sounds like a grandiose statement or hype, but I have not heard a Master and don't know the extent of the improvement. I think Mark has a point, would you rather have 2K more in source than cables? Normal thinking (not to be disrespectful) says to go with the source upgrade because that has always been the place where you can get more bang for your buck.
Just one last thought along these lines, The case of SinglePower amps which seem to have no end in sight in terms of what you do can do to make them sound better— also messes up the equation, because here we have an amp saying what the sound should be and again, the source is not the Alpha component.
Something like drum soloists.
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