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HD800 - Is sibilance an issue with your set-up? - Page 9

post #121 of 240
6/21/09 at 1:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3oxkjo View Post
Well, sibilance is sibilance. The word refers to a specific thing, so if it's not sibilence I guess one should find another term to describe it, whatever it is.
Then that means everyone on Head-Fi has been using it wrong, according to your experiment, which proves sibilance is present in any "accurate" phone
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post #122 of 240
6/21/09 at 1:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3oxkjo View Post
Well, sibilance is sibilance. The word refers to a specific thing, so if it's not sibilence I guess one should find another term to describe it, whatever it is.
Sibilance is a painful "ssscch", in reality it is a smooth "ssshhh..." and dissolve naturally

"Sibilant (or Sibilance) - "Essy", exaggerated "s" or "sh" sounds in vocals. Sibilant sounds carry most of their energy through the 4Khz to 8Khz range, but can extend to 10kHz, depending on the individual."

Notice the word "exaggerated"
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post #123 of 240
6/21/09 at 2:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post
Sibilance is a painful "ssscch", in reality it is a smooth "ssshhh..." and dissolve naturally

"Sibilant (or Sibilance) - "Essy", exaggerated "s" or "sh" sounds in vocals. Sibilant sounds carry most of their energy through the 4Khz to 8Khz range, but can extend to 10kHz, depending on the individual."

Notice the word "exaggerated"
Well, we consult Webster's which says for "sibilance":

"a sibilant quality or sound"

So we are forced to look up sibilant and Webster's says:

"having, containing, or producing the sound of or a sound resembling that of the s or the sh in sash"

No mention of the word "exaggerated"

As I was saying...
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post #124 of 240
6/21/09 at 2:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by powertoold View Post
Then that means everyone on Head-Fi has been using it wrong, according to your experiment, which proves sibilance is present in any "accurate" phone
See post 123 for a definition, but yes, any accurate phone will reproduce sibilance. The point is that a given phone may supress or exaggerate the natural sibilance depending on it's balance, treble resonances, etc. A phone that literally would not reproduce sibilance would be very poor indeed!
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post #125 of 240
6/21/09 at 2:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwmclean View Post
Currawong, this is a completely different scenario than what I’m hearing. You obviously have a “problem” The HD800 still sound fantastic to my hears if not slightly hot in the treble.
Your case does seem to be a one off as I haven’t heard of anyone else with level of severity.

I have at least 30hrs on my phones and the treble seems to have softened somewhat.
I am willing to put it down to being a 1-off problem, that I simply got a bad pair. It's a huge shame, as with some tubes in front, they sound absolutely fantastic otherwise. The soundstage is a pure drug of addiction and they are easily the fastest dynamic cans I've tried.
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post #126 of 240
6/21/09 at 2:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3oxkjo View Post
Well, we consult Webster's which says for "sibilance":

"a sibilant quality or sound"

So we are forced to look up sibilant and Webster's says:

"having, containing, or producing the sound of or a sound resembling that of the s or the sh in sash"

No mention of the word "exaggerated"

As I was saying...
Every subject have it's own specific 'dictionary' pinpointing to a specific context like medicine, constructions, in this case we refer to the audiophile terms and agreement

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/des...ossary-220770/
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post #127 of 240
6/21/09 at 3:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3oxkjo View Post
Hmmm... $1400 lemon. The only sour thing I detect here is sour grapes.
Sour grapes are for the plebes,I earn enough for the sweet ones.
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post #128 of 240
6/21/09 at 3:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post
every topic have it's own 'dictionary' like medicine, constructions, in this case we refer to the audiophile terms and agreement
"The audiophile terms and agreement", hmmm I don't remember signing that .

I know I sound pedantic, but it seems like some people posting here expected to hear no or very little in the way of sibilance when it is not unusual to have quite noticable levels on some recordings which a good headphone should just dutifully pass on to the ear.

The question is whether a particular phone exaggerates the extant sibilance beyond what's on the recording. Blaming the HD-800 for hearing sibilance on recordings is error, saying that they exaggerate the sibilance (perhaps they do) is fair game.
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post #129 of 240
6/21/09 at 6:24am
This certainly is a very interesting thread. I have heard the HD-800 in comparison to the Sennheiser Orpheus at the Munich HighEnd Show. Although the HD-800 was quite impressive I preferred the Orpheus by far.
And since I can't afford a Orpheus plus reading this thread I will miss out on the HD-800 and get myself a Grado PS-1000.

I have to admit that I am biased, since I have used a Grado GS-1000i which I quite like.
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post #130 of 240
6/21/09 at 7:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcf View Post
Hi John,
Sorry if I misquoted you but I only copied and pasted quotes from your own posts.
The question you ended your post with sounds more like a statement awaiting confirmation-"I think I have summed this up correctly - yes?"
I own Sennheiser headphones past and present so am really excited about the HD800 just like everyone else(might even buy one). I really appreciate the owners' findings about these headphones and their experiences with partnering amps. There have been a lot of people saying no to OP's original questions but two or three did say they were not entirely convinced about certain things. How did you come up with the conclusion that there's nothing to do the phones and the sibilance must be in the recordings? It is the same in a different thread when you were saying 650 were neutral and people who didn't agree must be used to other headphones that were not. That's where "I wasn't praising them at all - I was just stating facts." came from.
Do you realize that you are wearing a Sennheiser badge and praising a pair of Sennheiser headphones? Fair enough but please don't make it sound like any imperfection people hear must be from the recordings or they are not used to the neutral sound.
Please - you are taking what I say out of context and misinterpreting things - and this goes for what you are "quoting" about the 650 as well.

In my post here I was asking questions and attempting to make sense of conflicting posts and trying to come to a conclusion.

If you look at vocal microphones, you will see that the most popular studio vocal mic. has s boost of about 2dB in the region around 10kHz - others have more - many modern recordings are far from perfect with too much processing to make it "hot", etc..........

There is a *lot* more in listening to music than the final transducer - all I was trying to do was to open the debate and say that there is a lot more things that can cause sibilance other than the final transducer and all this needs to be taken into consideration when making a judgement.

I spend more time with microphones and recording music than I do listening on headphones and know very well what the front end can do to a recording.
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post #131 of 240
6/21/09 at 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3oxkjo View Post

I know I sound pedantic, but it seems like some people posting here expected to hear no or very little in the way of sibilance when it is not unusual to have quite noticable levels on some recordings which a good headphone should just dutifully pass on to the ear.

The question is whether a particular phone exaggerates the extant sibilance beyond what's on the recording. Blaming the HD-800 for hearing sibilance on recordings is error, saying that they exaggerate the sibilance (perhaps they do) is fair game.
It's possible this is inadvertently my fault. I noticed that there was some *extra* emphasis on sibilants that I hear with the HD800 - not normal ones, which I hear with every headphone, and expect to - and I posted this in the HD800 appreciation thread. But this is a symptom, not a problem, and should be treated as such. The question really shouldn't be about sibilance - it should be about the treble performance in general.

IMHO, the HD800 has a slightly hot treble. So far (150 hours+) break in has not changed this. I hear it on some vocals as a pronounced sibilance that I don't think should be there, and I hear it on cymbals that have a slightly over-exaggerated splashiness. The HD800 have some spectacular qualities, in the midrange and soundstaging especially, but I believe they have a flavor, which is a slightly overdamped bass, and a slightly hot treble. It's also possible that those two traits are related.
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post #132 of 240
6/21/09 at 10:40am
Good analysis, skylab.

I have a Gil Evans SACD, "Gil Evans + 10", which was released on LP in the '50's. Toward the end of the last cut, "Jambangle" (for which Evans considered suing The Doors because it sounds so much like "Light My Fire"!), there's a bit of high-end piano tinkling that sounds like a piano on the HD650, HD600, and Stax O2. On the HD800, it sounds like fragile glass breaking.

Which is correct? Piano or glass? Perhaps the piano SHOULD sound like glass in this instance, but I doubt it.

I assume that this is the tipped-up treble, or the treble difficulties in general.

Mr. Willett, please listen carefully to the HD800 when you finally actually get production samples. Keep in mind that your credibility here will be greatly enhanced if you hear at least some of the problems or issues discussed by others, and you will have no credibility whatsoever if you hear none, because there are no perfect headphones.

The HD800 is good, but rather thin, lean in the bass, and tipped up (and weird at times) in the treble.
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post #133 of 240
6/21/09 at 10:50am
I decided to try the Cowboy Junkie's Sweet Jane test because of Currawong's comment.

I tried the following cans:

HD580 + blue dragon cable
HD800
AD2000
D2000
K501
K701

I listened through the following setup:

SA8001 and ECD-1 -> WA5 LE (Sophia princess mesh 300b and 274b + Sylvania 6sn7WGTA)

Each time she sang "sweet jane," either I always heard sibilance or never heard sibilance (seems to be whether there was sibilance on the recording or not). I can say that the sibilance seem to be slightly more piercing on the HD800 than the others cans. This may be due to a lack or burn in and/or the fact that the HD800's are much more detailed than the others and/or because of the hot treble issue that skylab mentioned. I don't like sibilance as much as the next guy/gal but I am not ready to return my pair because of it, at least not at this point.

I also agree that tape hiss from old recording seems to be more apparent on the HD800.

I do not agree that they have lean bass at all though.
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post #134 of 240
6/21/09 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggf View Post
Mr. Willett, please listen carefully to the HD800 when you finally actually get production samples. Keep in mind that your credibility here will be greatly enhanced if you hear at least some of the problems or issues discussed by others, and you will have no credibility whatsoever if you hear none, because there are no perfect headphones.
Of course I will - I never said if there was or was not a problem - just giving other possible reasons to consider.

And if there is a problem in the very high treble I won't hear it anyway, as top end hearing drops off with age.


Quote:
Originally Posted by greggf View Post
The HD800 is good, but rather thin, lean in the bass, and tipped up (and weird at times) in the treble.
This is your finding on your equipment.

I certainly don't find the HD 800 lean in the bass at all (as many others have already said). It's bass is a clean and natural bass and does not have that bass slam that a closed headphone can give. It is not over bassy in the upper bass region that some headphones are. This does not mean it's lean. Many people in this forum have said it's not lean.

All I am trying to say is that you take everything into consideration - that's all.
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post #135 of 240
6/21/09 at 11:04am
Quote:
Mr. Willett, please listen carefully to the HD800 when you finally actually get production samples. Keep in mind that your credibility here will be greatly enhanced if you hear at least some of the problems or issues discussed by others, and you will have no credibility whatsoever if you hear none, because there are no perfect headphones.
Bloody hell, cut John W some slack will ya! not everyone's hears the same thing.
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