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The Beyerdynamic DT880 Discussion thread - Page 60

post #886 of 10430

I am not replacing the D1. When I get the WA6 I will be using the D1 as a DAC/pre-amp instead of a headphone amp.

 

The Woo Audio 3 is also a good choice for the dt880/600. Less expensive, too. Do a search on "dt880 wa3" and you'll find that it is a very popular combo, though many will say that dt880/600 like tube amps in general. But the WA3 and WA6 are popular choice. So are the Little Dot tube amps.

 

If you do get a tube amp to drive the dt880/600, which I would highly suggest doing, I'd recommend setting it out of reach of your daughter as the tubes do get hot.


Edited by Cal - 10/22/10 at 5:19pm
post #887 of 10430

For the Woo Audio's I noticed that it only takes RCA inputs... and the Maverick Audio takes a S/PDIF as an input.  Wouldn't taking a S/PDIF as an input be better ?

 

What would these do for me in terms of PC gaming ?  Are there PROS/CONS for Maverick Audio vs Woo Audio ?

post #888 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike99 View Post




I'll start checking these amps.

 

 

I'm not sure if you know this... but the HT | OMEGA Claro Halo have a built in headphone amplifier and according to them, this sound card supports up to 600 Ohm Headphones.  Since this sound card already has a headphone amp I'm not sure if an additional amp is necessary ?  I was unable to find any reviews for this but buyers in newegg give it a thumbs up.

 


1) Best results are usually with an external DAC (being inside a PC is often audio unfriendly)

2) If you have the Omega Claro - get the headphones and try it first... you may be happy 

3) If you then find it inadequate (or have the ugrade itch/doubts) look at:

- Firestone Audio Cute and Cute Curve (Cute is class A, Cute Curve is class AB - but can be coonverted to Class A with opamp biasing mod - no soldering, plug and play)

- Matrix M-Stage - Discrete Class A buffer stage with opamp driving it - can be modded to pure class A with biasing mod - no soldering, plug and play

- Firestone Audio Fubar series (combine Cute / Cute Curve with built in DAC)

- Or a tube amp .... many swear by Tubes with Beyers, I'm more of a SS man, and given that Beyers own amp is SS....

 

Finally - 600Ohm beyers are EASIER to drive than 32/250 ohm in some ways - because they require Voltage and not Current - so if you have an ample power supply and are running the headphone amp at a high enough voltage there should be no problem. In a PC if the Headamp is running from the 12V rails you'll probably be fine, if it is designed to run from the 5V PCI supply it may not have the V required - does the claro just plug into the slot, or does it also require a power connector? (like the Asus Xonar's for example)

The low impedance phones will tend to sound louder with lower voltages - and therefore people think of them as "easy to drive" - but mostly that means that they match well with small battery powered devices that have low voltages (ipods etc...) - but they also will use more current and drain the battery. - A higher impedance headphone will use lower current - which is easier on the headphone amp circuit.... as long as the required voltage is there.

 

Most opamps work best at 15V - which is the standard for opamp specs, many work very well at 12V, but a lot start struggling at 9V (which is common for CMOY headphone amps - using 9V batteries).

 

Good luck in your search!

 

David

 

P.S. I have a Matrix M-Stage modded to class A and am currently experimenting with different opamps - Class A OPA627/637 sounds great... definitely big step up on unmodded. Also have Firestone Audio Cute Curve - similar step up in class A - but I have not had time for extensive listening on this one.

post #889 of 10430

Thanks for your input.... You've provided a lot of useful info...

 

To reply...  Yes, I think maybe its a good idea to get the sound card first and try it out... and then possibly get an amp later....

You've given a list of amps and I will start looking into these...

 

Quote:
does the claro just plug into the slot, or does it also require a power connector? (like the Asus Xonar's for example)

Initially I was considering ASUS Xonar but It's not for me because it does not output audio for speaker & headphone simultaneously vs the the Claro HT does.... And yes, I did notice that ASUS is driven by a separate power connector.  I checked the pics for Claro HT and I don't see any power connectors so I'll assume that it runs from the 5V PCI.

 

So from what you are implying... since the Claro HT only uses the 5V PCI it may not be enough...

post #890 of 10430

The Mav D1 takes USB, optical, coaxial, and RCA in. I am using USB into the D1 and will be using the D1's RCA out to the WA6.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike99 View Post

For the Woo Audio's I noticed that it only takes RCA inputs... and the Maverick Audio takes a S/PDIF as an input.  Wouldn't taking a S/PDIF as an input be better ?

 

What would these do for me in terms of PC gaming ?  Are there PROS/CONS for Maverick Audio vs Woo Audio ?

post #891 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post

The Mav D1 takes USB, optical, coaxial, and RCA in. I am using USB into the D1 and will be using the D1's RCA out to the WA6.
 


 

I'm really a novice at this... I don't understand why would you take MAV D1 RCA output to the WA6...  So the Mav D1 would act like a pre-amp ?  I'll assume you do this to get better sound ?

 

BTW, I saw someone who doesn't use a sound card and use on MOBO sound card with their Headphone amps...  My experience is that sound card is much better than MOBO sound card.  Am I missing something ?  If you use an external amp, does it matter if you use a sound card if you are going to use an external amp ?
 

post #892 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlaloum View Post

 

 

Finally - 600Ohm beyers are EASIER to drive than 32/250 ohm in some ways - because they require Voltage and not Current - so if you have an ample power supply and are running the headphone amp at a high enough voltage there should be no problem. In a PC if the Headamp is running from the 12V rails you'll probably be fine, if it is designed to run from the 5V PCI supply it may not have the V required - does the claro just plug into the slot, or does it also require a power connector? (like the Asus Xonar's for example)

The low impedance phones will tend to sound louder with lower voltages - and therefore people think of them as "easy to drive" - but mostly that means that they match well with small battery powered devices that have low voltages (ipods etc...) - but they also will use more current and drain the battery. - A higher impedance headphone will use lower current - which is easier on the headphone amp circuit.... as long as the required voltage is there.

 

sorry bud, that's just false, and buying into the 600ohm is > all headfi hype. why not listen to beyer, the maufacturers first.

 

I have 880-600s and 250s beyers w/ decent quality amps so i know, not simply regurgitating misinformation on the web.

 

I say this again. The PCI sound card has no molex connector, it is limited to 5v power rail. THIS IS INSUFFICIENT FOR A 600!!!

 

even an extra 12v molex connector will be marginal. I can not be more clear....

 

My current M3 amp (which i built) runs 23.7v exactly from a s11 power supply. Comparing the 250 to the 600, the 600 is a tad underpowered from the M3 amp, I know this cos it exhibits similar traits to the 250 when i was running it straight from the uDAC... it is clear that the 250 is at home from a 24v M3, but the 600 needs a bit more headroom.

 

a 36v M3 would suffice but something like the Bijou would be a slam dunk for beyer 600s...

 

Pci sound car running studio 600ohm beyers... pfft, pls...

 

bud, you'd be better off buying a dedicated DAC and seperate amp rather than this s/c.... If you want the sound card for many solutions including a 5.1 receiver set up then fine, but you will need a seperate high voltage HP amp if you are even thinking of beyer 600s.

 

oh, and anything with a headphone out has an amp circuit...  the question is, what is the design, the voltage in RMS and overall power output.... from the specs it looks like the SC would be decent for lots of phones, b/c its got a more developed dedicated amp circuit for the purpose making it logically better than most - but that aint saying much... but no way it has the head room and dedicated circuitry of a serious amp to properly power beyer 600s.... at 5v input it probably wont have the juice for 250s...

 

it would be ideal for most consumer phones like sennheiser 555/595s, Grados, ATs etc.... to comapre it to a studio amp - which Beyer are clear about identifying the 600 range with, it a joke.

 

mate if you believe every claim on packaging, u're in for a world of hurt.


Edited by wankski - 10/22/10 at 9:22pm
post #893 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike99 View Post

 

 

BTW, I saw someone who doesn't use a sound card and use on MOBO sound card with their Headphone amps...  My experience is that sound card is much better than MOBO sound card.  Am I missing something ?  If you use an external amp, does it matter if you use a sound card if you are going to use an external amp ?
 



not exactly sure of what u're trying to say here, but you still need something to convert from digitial to analogue signal even if you use a seperate headphone amp, so yes you will still retain the soundcard with a headphone amp... u will plug into the line out rather than the headphones out to the amp to by pass the amp circuit of the soundcard (hopefully) and rely on the seperate amp...

 

alternatives to soundcards are usb or s/pdif input DACs - digital to analogue converters - that are usually discrete self-contained items. Some people prefer them to soundcards as they exist outside the 'noisy' electrical computer enirvonment, and often have their own regulated mains power... the downside is that headphone specific ones are limited to 2 channels meaning you can't extract 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound signal out of them to connect to a home theather package or similar...

 

this is a classic head-fi head fark... utter noob (no offense, we all been there) convinced to buy studio 600s phones from zealots who occupy a thread... sorry for being seemingly (or actually) offensive, but i'm trying to do you a favour.... or go ahead and empty your wallet on studio phones and run them to 1/9th of their potential, I don't care. 

 

just inform yourself and consult beyer themselves on what u should do with what you have or plan to acquire.... They are surprisingly responsive to us little guys, and u'd think they'd over sell their phones by overstating amping compatibility, but they generally don't.... Their own website is fairly clear on the issue, tho they really ought to supply min amping specs IMHO... (tho they'd probably never do that!)  but the beyer A1 amp ought to give you an idea....

post #894 of 10430

The D1 can serve as a DAC (digital to analog converter)/pre-amp and headphone amp. It has three outputs: tube out (pre-amp), normal out (pre-amp), phone out (headphone amp). I will be connecting the WA6 to the tube out; I currently have my computer speakers (active) connected to the normal out.

 

It may help to have a visual.

 

detail.jpg

I was about to use my mobo's optical out, but I couldn't get it to work. Yes, a dedicated sound card will be better. But I am using a USB connection to my D1 and the results have not disappointed. If you're using an external amp, a dedicated sound card is still important. If you're using an external DAC, I'd say a dedicated sound card is less important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike99 View Post



I'm really a novice at this... I don't understand why would you take MAV D1 RCA output to the WA6...  So the Mav D1 would act like a pre-amp ?  I'll assume you do this to get better sound ?

 

BTW, I saw someone who doesn't use a sound card and use on MOBO sound card with their Headphone amps...  My experience is that sound card is much better than MOBO sound card.  Am I missing something ?  If you use an external amp, does it matter if you use a sound card if you are going to use an external amp ?
 


Edited by Cal - 10/22/10 at 10:31pm
post #895 of 10430


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wankski View Post



sorry bud, that's just false, and buying into the 600ohm is > all headfi hype. why not listen to beyer, the maufacturers first.

 

I have 880-600s and 250s beyers w/ decent quality amps so i know, not simply regurgitating misinformation on the web.

 

 

 

Who's buying into anything - I have been pointing out the manufacturers recommendations (which include running with a 100ohm impedance headphone amp.... how many of those are there around !?!) and assuming that others are regurgitating misinformation is insulting.

 

The beyer A1 is rated for 100mW into 600ohm - Working through the maths that makes for 7.75V - that would be ear/skull spliting deafness inducing volume. 

So a 12V powered headphone amp will be within the ballpark.... viable if not ideal.

Even 9V powered is possible (as shown by some users here who use portables with their 600ohm HP's)

 

Will things run better with better / more powerfull PSU's most definitely - but often the more important criteria will be how clean the power is rather than how high the voltage.

Hence users with battery powered 9V amps will at times get better results because there is no hash/noise/rubbish on their powerline.

 

This is the problem with soundcards - they live in an inherently noisy environment and feed of noisy power. - This CAN be improved (see http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/ ) but takes some work. 

First question is therefore what is "Good Enough" (given that we are not all driving around in Rolls Royces, Ferraris, or Mac Trucks - there are different definitions of "best" let alone "good enough")

 

And given the posters query - the answer is - Plug in and suck it and see.... it is easy enough to add an amp later! 

The Claro soundcards do have a good reputation for sound quality - so that would not be money wasted.

 

It also depends on what one wants to achieve - if gaming is involved - then a soundcard is almost essential for positional audio, as most DAC's don't decode things like Dolby Headphone etc...

 

For best / ultimate sound quality you would have to go with pro level external DAC's (Lavry, Mytek, Benchmark) - and then possibly connect a headphone amp to the DAC.

A notch down there is a marketplace full of good sounding DAC's and there are pro level Soundcards (Lynx, RME, e-mu, M-Audio).

 

I would suggest his first step is a good soundcard - that provides the source.

 

Next step (if SQ is to be improved) - is the amp (which assumes that one has tried the soundcard and found it wanting). You can get VERY good amps for under $300 - and of course there are steps beyond that (the sky is always the limit) - and then there is DIY for those that are that way inclined.

 

 

My own 600ohm beyers are doing very well out of my M-Stage and almost as well out of a Cute Curve. 

 

 

 

 

 

post #896 of 10430

What gain are you using on the M-Stage for the 600s? Also, can anyone answer what the most suggested burn-in time is for these phone's?

 

-Daniel

post #897 of 10430

the product develop so many years, and changed so much. there are so many headphone in the market, and most of the time i hear the complaint about it, here the DT880/600 has the nice price and also the good quality, the friends who have the problem can try, that sounds very nice.

post #898 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlaloum 

 

Who's buying into anything - I have been pointing out the manufacturers recommendations (which include running with a 100ohm impedance headphone amp.... how many of those are there around !?!) and assuming that others are regurgitating misinformation is insulting.

 

The beyer A1 is rated for 100mW into 600ohm - Working through the maths that makes for 7.75V - that would be ear/skull spliting deafness inducing volume. 

So a 12V powered headphone amp will be within the ballpark.... viable if not ideal.

Even 9V powered is possible (as shown by some users here who use portables with their 600ohm HP's)

 

 

I meant the OP buying into the hype - why else would he/she venture beyer 600s without an amp, seriously...

 

of course you know the figure to use in the equation P=V^2/R to correctly produce 7.75 is RMS values right?

 

how do you know what a 12v input soundcard amp puts out in RMS terms unless u measured it?   btw, my M3 24v input amp makes only around 4.5vRMS. I would etch closer to the 7v mark if i bumped it up to 36v... and then ofcourse you have the whole argument about what an amp can swing before clipping.

 

9v cmoy .... been over this before... hey if you're an advocate of hooking up a $18 amp circuit w/ a 9v battery in there to a 350USD beyer 600ohm studio phone, be my guest....

 

the 100mW mark is interesting tho, as that also happens to be the power handling of the 880s....in any impedance....

 

Eg,

obviously we're not talking about trying to damage hearing here... but with the same 24v M3 amp at same theortectical max volume, hooked up to a 250ohm phone u're spitting out around 80mW, now reasonably you may listen to half volume, bringing 40mW, which in the circumstances seems reasonable... now w/ the 600s at max volume it can eek out only 32mW, at half a meagre 16mW.... this goes some way to explaining what is meant by 'underpowered'....

 

one might say, no problem just notch up the dial to pump up the power... but this is not so simple as the max voltage that can be supplied before clipping remains the same (swing) - this is what is referred to as 'headroom'.... you DO want an amp to comfortably power 600s or any headphone for that matter... its not about how loud it is, but how well its powered while listening at a desired level.... AT THE SAME VOLTAGE THE 250s ARE GETTING MORE POWER... THEY ARE BETTER SUPPLIED BY THE AMP whilst being well within manufacturer spec. Why this is important is obvious, you require power to do work, the phycial work of the drivers. (and yes, i comfortably listen to my 250s at 50% volume on my m3, on the 600s the amp even at MAX is incapable of supplying the cans w/ the same amount of juice!)

 

I can not be more clear.... Trying to make out the 600s are easier to power than 250s or 32s is just not supported by either the Manufacturer or simple grade level maths/physics...

 

 


 


Edited by wankski - 10/23/10 at 4:23am
post #899 of 10430

 

 

Quote:
The PCI sound card has no molex connector, it is limited to 5v power rail. THIS IS INSUFFICIENT FOR A 600!!!

Yes, I get the picture... smily_headphones1.gif

 

 

Quote:

Pci sound car running studio 600ohm beyers... pfft, pls...

 

bud, you'd be better off buying a dedicated DAC and seperate amp rather than this s/c.... If you want the sound card for many solutions including a 5.1 receiver set up then fine, but you will need a seperate high voltage HP amp if you are even thinking of beyer 600s.

I'm not sure If I had mentioned what will be using the Beyer 600.  My main purpose will be PC gaming....  I really will go all the way with buying a DAC and a seperate amp...  When I watch movies I go to my living room where I have a DENON home theater setup.

 

So I really gotta ask...  If I'm only going to be PC gaming... are the Beyer 600s over kill ?

 

 

Quote:
mate if you believe every claim on packaging, u're in for a world of hurt.

I hear you smily_headphones1.gif

 

 

Quote:

this is a classic head-fi head fark... utter noob (no offense, we all been there) convinced to buy studio 600s phones from zealots who occupy a thread... sorry for being seemingly (or actually) offensive, but i'm trying to do you a favour.... or go ahead and empty your wallet on studio phones and run them to 1/9th of their potential, I don't care. 

 

just inform yourself and consult beyer themselves on what u should do with what you have or plan to acquire.... They are surprisingly responsive to us little guys, and u'd think they'd over sell their phones by overstating amping compatibility, but they generally don't.... Their own website is fairly clear on the issue, tho they really ought to supply min amping specs IMHO... (tho they'd probably never do that!)  but the beyer A1 amp ought to give you an idea....

LOL, No offense taken mate... I know I'm a utter noob...  The reason I'm here is to inform myself and get info/suggestions from ppl that have more experience smily_headphones1.gif

Yes, I'm starting to question whether Beyer 600s are right for me If my only use will be PC gaming for PC gaming.

 

 

Quote:
If you're using an external amp, a dedicated sound card is still important. If you're using an external DAC, I'd say a dedicated sound card is less important.

OK

 

post #900 of 10430

For gaming you might want to look into the DT770 instead as it has a closed design. Noise from outside will be blocked out almost entirely.

 

And to all people wondering... With a proper amp it really doesn't matter if you have either the 250 or 600 ohm variant. The 600OHM is not harder to drive, it just sounds better. :-)

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