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The Beyerdynamic DT880 Discussion thread - Page 490

post #7336 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post

For the 250 Ohm one, I think the O2 would make a decent piece of gear. I actually got to listen to that combo once while I still owned the DT880 600, and I thought it sounded very good.

Get an ODAC if you haven't, and I think you are all set.

If or when you feel you would like to "bend" the sound of the DT880 because you like everything else, but you don't like the treble, then start looking at something else...
Thanks for the help! I don't think I'll be able to use a DAC because I'll be using this with a tablet because I'm going to Sweden and can't take my computer with me.
post #7337 of 10436

DT880 32Ohm Premium

 

Connected it today to my shiny new Bottlehead Crack and it was awesome. I would never have thought that an amp with 150Ohm output impedance could produce this beautiful full sound on the DT880 32Ohm version (with hifiman pads). 

 

Anyone else made this discovery? Total rediscovered love for the 880 on my part...

 

Cheers,

K

post #7338 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodweb View Post


Ok, I get your point.
But first, would these changes be audible?
And second, wouldn't you say it was bad implemented then? I mean, if these are known issues, shouldn't they be addressed when design the amp? So that the ending result would be only an increase in volume not in distortion whatsoever. Or shouldn't this rise in distortion for example be advised on the amp specs when changing gain (as they do with tubes)?

--edit don't know if I made myself clear

 

That's all right.

I see your point.

The short answer is:

it depends......

 

The long answer is:

Us tube lovers love our tubes.  I think we actually LIKE second order harmonic distortion.  I know The Troll does!

Anyway, in an Op Amp based headphone amp you should not really hear the difference between +6 dB and +12 dB of gain, there is more than enough feedback so the difference in distortion and bandwidth should be academic. Some people claim they do. OK with me.

 

And in a simple tube amp you very well may hear the difference between +6 and +12 dB of gain and may prefer a bit more second harmonic distortion...or maybe not. If you do it's probably because the amp is designed to "sound like tubes".

I suspect it is why people argue about tube amps, some people like the second order harmonic distortion and some don't.  And some tube designs are so sophisticated and complex that they basically sound like solid state designs anyway, i.e. ultra low distortion.

I suspect anyone buying and loving a Little Dot Mk IV is a lover of the tube sound.  They cater to a certain market.  I say "hey, why not?"   I have a vacuum tube headphone amp, it has a certain sound to it and I like it.   :D

 

Is the change in distortion relative to change in gain shown in the amp specs?

No, they don't usually show distortion for various gain settings. I suspect they publish the most favourable distortion specs.  You could argue that they should. And you would be right!

post #7339 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranman409 View Post
 


Any chance you could post a picture or link to where you saw that? I have the same problem with my dt880 and never got any use to them due to clamping(also tried to stretch it out). edit: never mind, i got the general idea. will try it out tomorrow 

 

Let me know how it turns out for you.  

 

I am still shocked with much of an improvement it is for me.

post #7340 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post
 

 

I get the feeling that at +12dB, the op amp might be pushed harder depending on the input signal (the O2 ran into this same problem), and that's not to mention we both know 2Vrms is not quite enough.

 

If it was, then the MacBook Pro should also be able to push the 600 Ohm Beyers since it can also output around 2Vrms.

 

 

There is something else missing in the equation here.

 

It's not as clear cut as like, say... you put in a 90dB signal and then the amplifier will just somehow "magically" amp it up to 90dB on the headphone.

 

Because that's not how an amplifier works.

 

An amplifier takes an original signal and "amplify" the signal by multiplying the signal and output the product.

 

So whatever is put in... will come out at a fixed amount higher. There is just no way around that.

 

I'm not sure if that applies to all amplifiers, but it sure does apply to the cmoy and all of its derivatives. The volume knob, in essence, just reduces the input signal so that the output will be able to reach whatever dB you hear. But it's still essentially... whatever comes in, goes out at a fixed amount higher.

 

So a 90dB input signal can go out at like, say... 60dB. Also in the process, since the volume knob "attenuates" the signal, you're essentially losing information from the input, causing dynamic range to shrink. Thanksfully, that only happens at high gain.

 

The other consideration has to be paid to how much voltage/current the amplifier can accommodate. There are two ways an output signal can be seen by the headphone: either as a current (when your headphone's impedance is low), or as a voltage (when your headphone's impedance is high). In both cases, there is a hard limit imposed on how much voltage/current an amplifier can put out. Any more than that and a component may be fried, or a fuse would be blown. Higher voltage/current leads to more wasted power, so that power needs to be dissipated as heat elsewhere.

 

That's not to mention no op amp or amplifying circuit is truly so perfect that they can amplify any signal and return the exact same thing... with every load. In the real world, these things have physical and mechanical constraints that prevent them from being able to do their job perfectly under extreme conditions. Unfortunately, the DT880 600 Ohm does fall under this extreme condition.

 

There's a bunch of things that goes into this, so... no, it's not really so clear that you can say "oh, well, it's 90dB, so that's already causing hearing loss, so it should be fine!"

 

That is... assuming you can actually get a quality 90dB signal out of the amplifier to begin with.

 

If it's too hard, just... try to imagine this:

 

You can probably throw stone to 1 foot mark. That's easy.

Can you throw a stone 100 feet? Hmm... not quite so trivial anymore.

Can you throw 100 stones at 1 foot? Hmm... also not quite so easy anymore, is it?

 

But that's how an amplifier works in a nutshell. Extreme loads force it to either throw one stone really far, or more stones really close.

 

The O2 has some problems in it's gain structure.

People may go nuts when I say that.......OK, that's their problem.

+12 dB of gain in an Op Amp based headphone amp should not be an issue.

2 Vrms is OK if you don't listen to DT880/600s that loud.

Personally I wouldn't spend that much money on DT880/600 just to use them with an E17 or a Macbook, or iPod, etc.

I've used them with an E17 but only to see "if it works".

 

To an amplifier, the difference between low and high impedance headphones is:

Low impedance: a little more current, a little less voltage

High impedance: a little less current, a little more voltage.

 

For an SPL of 90 dB, you could write a textbook about gain structure and SNR, etc.

post #7341 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRodriguez View Post

How would the pros 250ohm sound with a JDS labs 02 for classical music? I already own the O2 bit I'm waiting for someone to tell me if this is a good combo to pull the trigger. I have also thought about getting some Senns HD580, which would be the better headphone for classical?


I have O2 and DT880 (250ohm)

I think it sounds great, quite clean and open. I can drive DT880 on low gain without any problem  about 9 o'clock on the stick for normal listening level. I'm using Aune T1 as the DAC. Now I just need to hunt for an upgrade RCA to 3.5mm cable.

post #7342 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20Fidelity View Post


I have O2 and DT880 (250ohm)


I think it sounds great, quite clean and open. I can drive DT880 on low gain without any problem  about 9 o'clock on the stick for normal listening level. I'm using Aune T1 as the DAC. Now I just need to hunt for an upgrade RCA to 3.5mm cable.
Will it really sound that bad without a DAC? The problem is that is is a set up for a tablet and not a PC so I can't use a DAC.
post #7343 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRodriguez View Post


Will it really sound that bad without a DAC? The problem is that is is a set up for a tablet and not a PC so I can't use a DAC.


Just be sure to keep your tablets volume at suitable levels. (Around  75% - 80%) higher if you can without any audible distortion. You want to keep the source output (tablet) rather high and use the amps volume full-time, but you also don't want to add any unwanted noise or distortion from the tablet. 

Your ears will tell you when its right.

And yes, for the purists it is double amping, however don't stress too much about it. :tongue: 


Edited by H20Fidelity - 5/9/14 at 3:27am
post #7344 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20Fidelity View Post


Just be sure to keep your tablets volume at suitable levels. (Around  75% - 80%) higher if you can without any audible distortion. You want to keep the source output (tablet) rather high and use the amps volume full-time, but you also don't want to add any unwanted noise or distortion from the tablet. 


Your ears will tell you when its right.


And yes, for the purists it is double amping, however don't stress too much about it. tongue.gif  
Okay, that's done g good advice. What you told me kinda makes me wish I went for an iPad but then I'm kinda of a android fanboy XD. I might throw in an old IPod classic in the mix to be she to use the dock out the bottom. I wish android phones/tablets could so this.
post #7345 of 10436
Hey guys, I'm selling my DT 880 Pro 250 's. They're in mint condition and about 9 months old. Check them out if you're interested:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/718234/beyerdynamic-dt-880-perfect-condition#post_10534953
post #7346 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by illyria View Post
 

I have been getting massive headaches from my DT880 Pro slipping down and putting a lot of pressure on the top of my head.  So I decided to try out something that I saw in the LCD2 thread, I sewed up an elastic sock (as my initial test) that I attached to the half circle metal parts to use as a new band.

 

After a little adjusting, my head is half an inch from my head to the headphone band.  Now I can honestly say that it is the most comfortable headphone that I have ever tried. With something so simple, it's incredulously more comfortable.

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but it's 'incredibly', not 'incredulously'.

 

Grammar aside, I found my Pros were getting a little tight so bent the band out a bit. That solved the problem, but when I started listening next night I felt the sound was noticeably brighter.Tried a few different tracks, yep, the sound was definitely--though not hugely--brighter. Now it's been speculated that any difference between to the Pro and Premium might be due to the clamping pressure, and I would now concur. Same drivers, same shell, same damping, just different lead and clamping pressure. Press the Premiums a little closer to your ears and you will hear a difference, a loss of treble and a closing in of the sound, but it will seem so slight as to be of no consequence. However, in the longer term it is of consequence. It's like A/B testing where there seems not much difference, but play a whole CD and the difference can't be ignored.

 

When I first got my Pros I had a used 600 ohm model lying around. Comparing them, I found the 600 noticeably brighter, but put it down to the impedance. Now I believe it was the clamping pressure, which with a used model would be even slacker than usual. So maybe here we have one possible answer--apart from personal preference and a half dozen other possible differences--as to why some people find the DT880 unbearably bright and others can happily listen to it all day without any EQ whatsoever.   

post #7347 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post
 

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but it's 'incredibly', not 'incredulously'.

 

Grammar aside, I found my Pros were getting a little tight so bent the band out a bit. That solved the problem, but when I started listening next night I felt the sound was noticeably brighter.Tried a few different tracks, yep, the sound was definitely--though not hugely--brighter. Now it's been speculated that any difference between to the Pro and Premium might be due to the clamping pressure, and I would now concur. Same drivers, same shell, same damping, just different lead and clamping pressure. Press the Premiums a little closer to your ears and you will hear a difference, a loss of treble and a closing in of the sound, but it will seem so slight as to be of no consequence. However, in the longer term it is of consequence. It's like A/B testing where there seems not much difference, but play a whole CD and the difference can't be ignored.

 

When I first got my Pros I had a used 600 ohm model lying around. Comparing them, I found the 600 noticeably brighter, but put it down to the impedance. Now I believe it was the clamping pressure, which with a used model would be even slacker than usual. So maybe here we have one possible answer--apart from personal preference and a half dozen other possible differences--as to why some people find the DT880 unbearably bright and others can happily listen to it all day without any EQ whatsoever.   

 
I used "incredulously" to portray my scepticism and disbelief at the increase in comfort with such a simple modification.
post #7348 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by illyria View Post
 
I used "incredulously" to portray my scepticism and disbelief at the increase in comfort with such a simple modification.

 

Nice try, but sorry, there'a no way "it's incredulously more comfortable" is a sentence. You may be 'incredulous' about the increase in comfort (though it would be better if you were 'astonished' or 'delighted'), but  the comfort cannot be "incredulously" more.

 

However, let's not get hung up on it. There are headphones to discuss .

post #7349 of 10436

I was going back and forth between my DT880s and Alpha Dogs this morning. I played some vocal tracks from Mariah Carey ripped from a CD into FLAC. 

 

Vocal imaging is much more full bodied and intimate than the DT880. You get a much better feeling of presence in the recording studio and the size of the room being recorded in.

 

Background vocals are more detailed than the DT880, however don't "pan" around the soundstage quite as well as the circular shaped DT880 cups. They do L/R separation incredibly well though and sacrifice maybe that 1-2% in overall soundstage presence that the DT880 has.

 

DT880 is much better for music that requires a larger than average soundstage like orchestra music and classical.  

 

Alpha Dog soundstage is more elliptical shaped, however the natural tonality and airy peak-free highs make you forget about the shape when you're wearing closed headphones.

 

The overall tone of the Alpha Dog is more neutral than the DT880 and has less sparkle in the upper mids and high frequencies lending it to sound more natural without rounding off the detail. (Alpha Dogs will still get sibilant with bad recordings)

 

Now to the bass: DT880 has nearly as much impact as the Alpha Dog but the DT880 couldn't touch the Alpha Dog with a stick when it comes to the after impact sub-bass rumble that orthodynamics offer.

 

The tone change isn't night/day like the transition from a DT880 to the HD650. This is why I love my Alpha Dogs. They are incredibly accurate for flat studio monitoring and offer isolation and incredible 3D imaging and accurate high frequency extension that cannot be found in closed headphones under $600. 

 

EDIT: Here are pictures for fun : ]

 

 


Edited by wahsmoh - 5/11/14 at 11:28am
post #7350 of 10436
So ive just got my dt880 for a week, its been great but feels like its missing something.so... now there's the alpha dogs! Dt880 is still within amazon return lol.what to do! biggrin.gif
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