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The Beyerdynamic DT880 Discussion thread - Page 483

post #7231 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

With apologies to The Dragon...
 

Don't mind me.

Spin it up our EE Bokor. :D


Edited by TrollDragon - 5/2/14 at 9:36am
post #7232 of 10436

I have a quick question. I'm looking for the DT 880 250 ohm and would be amping them with Littledot mk2 or mk3 tube amp. Would that warm up the mids a bit? Based on some feedback the mids here have a tendency to be bland which I kinda don't want. I also have the DT1350 and while it's a good all around portable headphone, I would say that the mids to me can sound a tad dry. Am I looking at the same characteristic in DT 880? How's the comparison between them signature wise (or perhaps focused on the mids)?

 

Thanks in advanced. :)

post #7233 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post
 

 

Well, both you and I know well enough that music also happens in the time domain, and not just the frequency domain. So something that measures super flat may still have its own behavior in the time domain that we can't "see" on a graph that has... no time axis.

 

We probably would be able to measure that but I suspect people don't want to... because then who would go out and buy $100 amps anymore? <img src=

 

And then there's the fact that there really is no such thing as a "flat" frequency response. They have been trying to correct the "flat" frequency response curves as of late...

 

But then the other side of the equation would start to sweat profusely because that would mean another issue: that every single audio equipment we have designed up until yesterday would not have a "flat" frequency response. <img src=

 

Such is the state of this hobby.

 



With apologies to The Dragon...

Sure, no headphone has a flat frquency response, and they all have prettty rough looking square wave response.
But surely you're not saying that a good amplifier doesn't have flat frequency response?
It's only flat within the audio bandwidth, and it will have a tolerance, say +/- 0.1 dB, but for all intents and purposes a good amplifier is flat.
And a good analog headphone amplifier will have good square wave response.

 

No, I'm not saying a good amplifier doesn't have flat frequency response. I am saying that there are other factors that affect the quality of an amp that we can't see with a frequency response graph.

 

But if we have to consider the frequency response graph, I think the burning question would be: "is it flat when it's driving a hard load?"

 

A headphone is both a capacitive and resistive load in real life. And that's not to mention the resistive load varies with frequency due to mechanical aspects. Heck, it's not completely the same between left and right channel either. This should more or less introduce slight distortion in real life. High impedance headphones like the DT880 600 are probably less affected by this because the resistive load would dominate, but it's still a factor either way unless somebody would like to show me otherwise.

 

Beyond that, the "super flat" O2 when driving certain loads may still not be perfectly flat with its frequency response. See here:

http://scientistsaudio.blogspot.com/2012/06/leckerton-uha-6smkii-part-1.html

 

That's a purely resistive 150 Ohm load.

 

Now some may argue that the variance should not be "audible" (0.1dB is not audible), but it does prove a point: it's not "perfectly flat".

 

And notice how bad the more expensive iQube measures. Yet you can go ahead, read some reviews, and it's typically rated higher than both the O2 and Leckerton amps.

 

I'm still not saying that a good amp should not have a flat frequency response though. What I'm trying to say and show is just this:

 

The frequency response of an amplifier is not the only determining factor of its sound. There are amps that don't have a flat frequency response that people typically prefer over amps that have flat frequency response.


Edited by Bill-P - 5/2/14 at 11:59am
post #7234 of 10436

It looks like I blew a speaker out. This shows up as a rattling sound with certain types of music. There is a lesson to be learned here. When playing around with VSTs or anything that can substantially affect the volume, turn the volume down on the amp.  Mattere of fact, it probably a good idea to do this every time I plug in my set of headphones.

 

Bob

post #7235 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-P View Post
 

 

No, I'm not saying a good amplifier doesn't have flat frequency response. I am saying that there are other factors that affect the quality of an amp that we can't see with a frequency response graph.

 

But if we have to consider the frequency response graph, I think the burning question would be: "is it flat when it's driving a hard load?"

 

A headphone is both a capacitive and resistive load in real life. And that's not to mention the resistive load varies with frequency due to mechanical aspects. Heck, it's not completely the same between left and right channel either. This should more or less introduce slight distortion in real life. High impedance headphones like the DT880 600 are probably less affected by this because the resistive load would dominate, but it's still a factor either way unless somebody would like to show me otherwise.

 

Beyond that, the "super flat" O2 when driving certain loads may still not be perfectly flat with its frequency response. See here:

http://scientistsaudio.blogspot.com/2012/06/leckerton-uha-6smkii-part-1.html

 

That's a purely resistive 150 Ohm load.

 

Now some may argue that the variance should not be "audible" (0.1dB is not audible), but it does prove a point: it's not "perfectly flat".

 

And notice how bad the more expensive iQube measures. Yet you can go ahead, read some reviews, and it's typically rated higher than both the O2 and Leckerton amps.

 

I'm still not saying that a good amp should not have a flat frequency response though. What I'm trying to say and show is just this:

 

The frequency response of an amplifier is not the only determining factor of its sound. There are amps that don't have a flat frequency response that people typically prefer over amps that have flat frequency response.

 

The Leckerton and the O2 look reasonably flat, sure they have a touch of roll-off at the top and the bottom end of the spectrum, but it's so low that it's practically insignificant.

It may have been nice if Mr. Scientist had compared 150 Ohms to no load and something in between as well, like 30 or 50 or 60 Ohms.

 

You can't really tell how much resistance, inductance and capacitance a headphone has unless you have some more data, like a set of impedance curves with amplitude and phase.  It doesn't really follow that a 600 Ohm load headphone is dominated by resistance.

Anyway, how do you define a "hard load"?  A lot of capacitance? A  lot of inductance? Too low a load impedance for the amp?

 

Here's a good article from Benchmark, the article talks about the benefits of an amp with very low output impedance: 

http://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/white-papers/11653109-the-0-ohm-headphone-amplifier

 

Man, that iQube has some high frequency roll off going on!

post #7236 of 10436
post #7237 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

The Leckerton and the O2 look reasonably flat, sure they have a touch of roll-off at the top and the bottom end of the spectrum, but it's so low that it's practically insignificant.
It may have been nice if Mr. Scientist had compared 150 Ohms to no load and something in between as well, like 30 or 50 or 60 Ohms.

You can't really tell how much resistance, inductance and capacitance a headphone has unless you have some more data, like a set of impedance curves with amplitude and phase.  It doesn't really follow that a 600 Ohm load headphone is dominated by resistance.
Anyway, how do you define a "hard load"?  A lot of capacitance? A  lot of inductance? Too low a load impedance for the amp?

Here's a good article from Benchmark, the article talks about the benefits of an amp with very low output impedance: 
http://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/white-papers/11653109-the-0-ohm-headphone-amplifier

Man, that iQube has some high frequency roll off going on!

If I remember correctly, you are talking about reactance. Correct?
post #7238 of 10436

If anyone has any issue with the lack of warmth and thump in bass on the 880/600 with stock pads, and doesn't want to spend a ridiculous amount of money on aftermarket pads, I was experimenting and found a nice compromise.  Take some electrical tape around the outside of the pads, leaving about 1/3 of the velour showing next to the ear.  improves richness and bass impact without diminishing the beautiful highs.  I tried completely covering the outside, but it effected the treble way too much, and made the bass muddy.  Went through a few experiments with the tape, but the simplest was the best.

 

Its a silly easy thing to experiment with.  and highly tunable with just exposing different amounts of velour.

 

Yes, over time this would gunk up the pads, but its a temporary solution to a permanent answer.

 

anyone else do any experimenting with the pads?

post #7239 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithpgdrb View Post
 

If anyone has any issue with the lack of warmth and thump in bass on the 880/600 with stock pads, and doesn't want to spend a ridiculous amount of money on aftermarket pads, I was experimenting and found a nice compromise.  Take some electrical tape around the outside of the pads, leaving about 1/3 of the velour showing next to the ear.  improves richness and bass impact without diminishing the beautiful highs.  I tried completely covering the outside, but it effected the treble way too much, and made the bass muddy.  Went through a few experiments with the tape, but the simplest was the best.

 

Its a silly easy thing to experiment with.  and highly tunable with just exposing different amounts of velour.

 

Yes, over time this would gunk up the pads, but its a temporary solution to a permanent answer.

 

anyone else do any experimenting with the pads?


Similarly with velours you can find the "tuning point" then smear silicone into the pads at that point with an ice cube.

post #7240 of 10436

So I picked up an O2 this morning for a good price. I'm hoping the set up as follows sounds decent enough to get me started.

Aune T1 (Golden Lion 6922/E88CC tube) > JDS O2 > DT880 (250ohm)

If anyone can say anything about the pairing and power of O2 with 250ohm DT880 that would be much appreciated.

post #7241 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20Fidelity View Post

So I picked up an O2 this morning for a good price. I'm hoping the set up as follows sounds decent enough to get me started.


Aune T1 (Golden Lion 6922/E88CC tube) > JDS O2 > DT880 (250ohm)


If anyone can say anything about the pairing and power of O2 with 250ohm DT880 that would be much appreciated.

I have both the O2/zOD.aC and the DT880s. The two sound very good together with ample volume.
post #7242 of 10436
+1, O2 powered my 600ohm 880s pretty nicely. The only issue that I had was that it wasn't enough, even on high gain, for pc gaming which runs low on the mix. I max out the o2 trying to get decent volume and there are times when whispers are unintelligible. Otherwise, great pairing.
post #7243 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by r010159 View Post


I have both the O2/zOD.aC and the DT880s. The two sound very good together with ample volume.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEleventy View Post

+1, O2 powered my 600ohm 880s pretty nicely. The only issue that I had was that it wasn't enough, even on high gain, for pc gaming which runs low on the mix. I max out the o2 trying to get decent volume and there are times when whispers are unintelligible. Otherwise, great pairing.



Great! That's two thumbs up!

post #7244 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEleventy View Post

+1, O2 powered my 600ohm 880s pretty nicely. The only issue that I had was that it wasn't enough, even on high gain, for pc gaming which runs low on the mix. I max out the o2 trying to get decent volume and there are times when whispers are unintelligible. Otherwise, great pairing.
Sounds like an issue on your volume out on your PC being too low.
post #7245 of 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by r010159 View Post

If I remember correctly, you are talking about reactance. Correct?

Yes, capacitive reactance and inductive reactance.
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