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The Beyerdynamic DT880 Discussion thread - Page 449

post #6721 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by genclaymore View Post
 


I had DT880 pro-250 verison and I didn't like them and I had the headband bent and they doesn't sound the same to me as the DT880 premium 600's. But then when I had the DT880 pro-250s I had used them with both a E9 and a STX that I had during the time of owning them before going to a A900X.

 

And that's exactly the kind of testimonial that gives the 600 ohm version its rep - mostly people who heard them at different times, often with different amps.  Like this fellow who later did a more controlled comparison and concluded no difference: http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs/60#post_6868111

 

And of those who claim to have compared them in person, they seem to just as often prefer the 250 ohm variety as the other way around: 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs#post_6848845

http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs/135#post_6945051

http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs/60#post_6860787
 

Still others say exactly the same:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs/75#post_6874938

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kman1211 View Post
 


The Pro 250 ohm with the headband bent sounds like the Premium 250 ohm. The 600 ohm is a different beast than the 250 ohm because of different drivers.

 

They have the same drivers.


Edited by Kon Peki - 3/10/14 at 7:10pm
post #6722 of 10430

The soundstage difference between the Premium and Pro is negligible and shouldn't be a determining factor. I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of listeners heard zero difference between them in that regard. The tighter clamping force of the Pro results in slightly better sub-bass impact but other than that they are the same headphone.


Edited by devhen - 3/10/14 at 8:07pm
post #6723 of 10430
The only true to life, honest to goodness review that holds any merit...

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/beyer/dt-880.htm

biggrin.gifbeerchug.gifbiggrin.gif
post #6724 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kon Peki View Post
 

 

And that's exactly the kind of testimonial that gives the 600 ohm version its rep - mostly people who heard them at different times, often with different amps.  Like this fellow who later did a more controlled comparison and concluded no difference: http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs/60#post_6868111

 

And of those who claim to have compared them in person, they seem to just as often prefer the 250 ohm variety: 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs#post_6848845

http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs/60#post_6860787

 

 

They have the same drivers.

No they are different, they may be similar and come from the same basic design but the drivers are not the same. There is going to be differences in the voice coil and the wiring of the driver. Even if the diaphragm itself is the same the whole driver unit isn't the same. The very fact they have such a difference in ohm ratings is an indication they are designed differently.

post #6725 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by kman1211 View Post
 

No they are different, they may be similar and come from the same basic design but the drivers are not the same. There is going to be differences in the voice coil and the wiring of the driver. Even if the diaphragm itself is the same the whole driver unit isn't the same. The very fact they have such a difference in ohm ratings is an indication they are designed differently.


I'm still going with the fellows who took them apart and examined the drivers side by side: http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs/225#post_7028234

post #6726 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by kman1211 View Post
 

No they are different, they may be similar and come from the same basic design but the drivers are not the same. There is going to be differences in the voice coil and the wiring of the driver. Even if the diaphragm itself is the same the whole driver unit isn't the same. The very fact they have such a difference in ohm ratings is an indication they are designed differently.

 

You make a good point but it can be confusing for some people, mostly because they have a desire to believe that the 600 ohm version is objectively "best". Beyer didn't release different impedance versions of the DT770/880/990 so that there would be some that were superior to others, they did it so customers could buy the one that matches what they are powering them with. Nothing more, nothing less. They are designed to perform 100% identically in every other way. That's why the 32, 250, and 600 ohm versions of the DT880 all have the same list price. And there's a reason why, despite that, the 600 ohm version typically sells for more. That reason is:

 

1- High impedance headphones are necessary for tube amplifiers, like the boutique tube amps we all love so much, and for use with high power professional equipment, and the people that use and buy these systems are typically willing to pay a lot more than the people who are particularly interested in low impedance versions

 

2- People continue to promote the myth that the 600 ohm version is objectively superior in some way despite no real evidence to support that and plenty of evidence to refute it


Edited by devhen - 3/10/14 at 7:51pm
post #6727 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kon Peki View Post
 


I'm still going with the fellows who took them apart and examined the drivers side by side: http://www.head-fi.org/t/506963/dt880-600ohm-bs/225#post_7028234


I've seen the drivers side by side myself, they do look virtually identical except the 600 ohm had a hole in the middle of the magnet and the 250 ohm didn't. He doesn't necessarily say they are exactly the same but rather very similar which is true, there is likely minor differences between the two, he pretty much said they sound pretty much the same sonically. The reason I say they are different beasts is because different ohm impedance changes how they respond to amplification meaning they will likely sound a bit different on the same system. I'm not saying one is better or they are different in terms of overall sound signature, I'm just saying the drivers are slightly different.


Edited by kman1211 - 3/10/14 at 8:09pm
post #6728 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post
 

 

You make a good point but it can be confusing for some people, mostly because they have a desire to believe that the 600 ohm version is objectively "best". Beyer didn't release different impedance versions of the DT770/880/990 so that there would be some that were superior to others, they did it so customers could buy the one that matches what they are powering them with. Nothing more, nothing less. They are designed to perform 100% identically in every other way. That's why the 32, 250, and 600 ohm versions of the DT880 all have the same list price. And there's a reason why, despite that, the 600 ohm version typically sells for more. That reason is:

 

1- High impedance headphones are necessary for tube amplifiers, like the boutique tube amps we all love so much, and for use with high power professional equipment, and the people that use and buy these systems are typically willing to pay a lot more than the people who are particularly interested in low impedance versions

 

2- People continue to promote the myth that the 600 ohm version is objectively superior in some way despite no real evidence to support that and plenty of evidence to refute it


That is true, I thought all of them sounded very similar, I can't necessarily say any model really sounds better than another. And when all are amped properly on high quality systems they compete very closely together. It's all about what goes best with a certain system. On my particular system the 250 ohm sounds the best for example.

post #6729 of 10430

I've read a few places before that the 600 ohm driver is a bit different--something about fewer windings in the voice coil or some such. That's not an imperative that the sound should be different, since merely intending to make two things differ from one another does not automatically mean that they will.

 

Going further, there are a lot of possible differences between any given two pairs of headphones from the same range--e.g. age and compaction of the pads, differences in manufacturing tolerances, etc--that are completely unintended and which might contribute to differing performance. This can most certainly happen between two otherwise identical DT880s (of whichever impedance you prefer). This makes the issue of comparing individual samples problematic.

 

Like anything subjective, we're always going to be hammering away with inductive reasoning, since there's no way to "prove" what something sounds like to an individual. However, if we wanted to make a strong inductive argument as to whether or not there's an audible difference between the 250 ohm and 600 ohm DT880s, we would have to set up a measuring rig, round up lots of examples of both versions of the DT880, and measure each individual unit many times to build up an average. Then we would have to average together all these averages for each respective impedance version to determine if, categorically, there was a significant difference between the collective measurements of the samples in each impedance rating.

 

Coming at it from the subjective angle, we would also have to set up some kind of ABX test, whereby listeners would listen to randomized pairs selected from our pool of DT880s (one member of each pair from each impedance) and see how well, if at all, they can split the two. This would let us avoid the unlikely scenario where the factors we measured were consistent across the two impedances, but that additional factors which we either failed to measure, or which are difficult or impossible to accurately plot, somehow produce an obvious audible difference.

 

All of this represents a ridiculous amount of time, effort, and expense to spend on what most people consider a headphone past its prime, and I doubt it would really do much to settle the debate, anyway, because there will be enough uncontrolled variables in such testing that anybody who doesn't like the conclusion will most certainly just blame the methodology.

post #6730 of 10430

I said pretty much the same thing in a post some time back, Argyris, but nowhere near as logically and lucidly as you. There are just so many variables--manufacturing tolerance, ear shape and size, hearing acuity, impedance matching...absolutely no way could you ever 'prove' anything. All I know is that my Pro sounds brilliant to me, and that's after a history of owning not just mid-market but up-market phones (LCD-2, HE-500 etc). The DT880 simply performs way out of its price range, and whatever it lacks--and I've just been assured in the T90 thread that it lacks considerable compared to that headphone--it isn't a lack that I'm aware of when air conducting my favourite symphonies.

post #6731 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by kman1211 
He doesn't necessarily say they are exactly the same but rather very similar...

He says this:
Quote:
First of all, Nikongod opened up my 880s -- the drivers are identical between the 250 and the 600. He was the poster who said the driver sizes were different, and I'm sure they were in the old days ... but now, with new stock (well, 2009 anyway), the drivers are the same.

But I take your point that there may be small differences.
Edited by Kon Peki - 3/11/14 at 3:21am
post #6732 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kon Peki View Post


He says this:
But I take your point that there may be small differences.

They are essentially the same headphone sonically with slight differences in the driver. The voice coil is different on all three versions. The diaphragm is likely of a different thickness. That means they have different drivers. Just because they look the same doesn't mean they are the same, they are rather the same family of driver.


Edited by kman1211 - 3/11/14 at 5:06am
post #6733 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

The only true to life, honest to goodness review that holds any merit...

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/beyer/dt-880.htm

biggrin.gifbeerchug.gifbiggrin.gif

Do I sense some heavy sarcasm there? rolleyes.gif
post #6734 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyris View Post

I've read a few places before that the 600 ohm driver is a bit different--something about fewer windings in the voice coil or some such. That's not an imperative that the sound should be different, since merely intending to make two things differ from one another does not automatically mean that they will.

Going further, there are a lot of possible differences between any given two pairs of headphones from the same range--e.g. age and compaction of the pads, differences in manufacturing tolerances, etc--that are completely unintended and which might contribute to differing performance. This can most certainly happen between two otherwise identical DT880s (of whichever impedance you prefer). This makes the issue of comparing individual samples problematic.

Like anything subjective, we're always going to be hammering away with inductive reasoning, since there's no way to "prove" what something sounds like to an individual. However, if we wanted to make a strong inductive argument as to whether or not there's an audible difference between the 250 ohm and 600 ohm DT880s, we would have to set up a measuring rig, round up lots of examples of both versions of the DT880, and measure each individual unit many times to build up an average. Then we would have to average together all these averages for each respective impedance version to determine if, categorically, there was a significant difference between the collective measurements of the samples in each impedance rating.

Coming at it from the subjective angle, we would also have to set up some kind of ABX test, whereby listeners would listen to randomized pairs selected from our pool of DT880s (one member of each pair from each impedance) and see how well, if at all, they can split the two. This would let us avoid the unlikely scenario where the factors we measured were consistent across the two impedances, but that additional factors which we either failed to measure, or which are difficult or impossible to accurately plot, somehow produce an obvious audible difference.

All of this represents a ridiculous amount of time, effort, and expense to spend on what most people consider a headphone past its prime, and I doubt it would really do much to settle the debate, anyway, because there will be enough uncontrolled variables in such testing that anybody who doesn't like the conclusion will most certainly just blame the methodology.

The 600 Ohm will have the most windings and the thinnest wire in it's windings.
The 32 Ohm will have the least amount of windings and the thickest wire in it's windings.

Somewhere in this massive thread someone referenced an article by Beyer,
'Beyer claims the 600 Ohm diaphragm is the lightest and the most responsive.

You could argue that the 600 Ohm version is best for those who want to use their DT880s with OTL tube amps,
Those who want to use their DT880 with an iPod should get the 32 Ohm version.
post #6735 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 
You could argue that the 600 Ohm version is best for those who want to use their DT880s with OTL tube amps,
Those who want to use their DT880 with an iPod should get the 32 Ohm version.

 

And those who just want to get the most versatile headphone with fewest compromises at the best price should get the 250 ohm, preferably Pro.

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