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post #5266 of 7840

You're not the only person I've seen who calls it that. Truth be told, I've never been there. I think rabid objectivism is just as bad as rabid subjectivism. Both are trying to force a point--in the latter case it's "spend more money and do any random thing that's different and it totally improves the sound", whereas in the former case it's "your hearing is wrong--the measurements say...."

 

I'll just listen to my music in peace, thank you very much. That's not to say I don't want to learn more about what's actually going on at the electrical or physical level, and I appreciate your posts about the former. It's nice to be able to learn about stuff without all the drama that erupts when people's pet ideologies are upset.

post #5267 of 7840
As XTC put it "Science Friction, burns my fingers..." biggrin.gif

But it is fun to poke face in there and see them argue about which 3Amp glass fuse on the IEC power socket has the best sound and in which direction to install it so you get the better sound. biggrin.gif
post #5268 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

As XTC put it "Science Friction, burns my fingers..." biggrin.gif

But it is fun to poke face in there and see them argue about which 3Amp glass fuse on the IEC power socket has the best sound and in which direction to install it so you get the better sound. biggrin.gif

Haha, they have magical powers that make them hear things we didn't know existed. biggrin.gif
post #5269 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

As XTC put it "Science Friction, burns my fingers..." biggrin.gif

But it is fun to poke face in there and see them argue about which 3Amp glass fuse on the IEC power socket has the best sound and in which direction to install it so you get the better sound. biggrin.gif

Fact:
all glass fuses have a correct up and a correct down.
they all have a correct front and a correct back
if you install them incorrectly your DT880s will sound like Beats! tongue.gif It's true!

OK, I made the fuse stuff up.......smily_headphones1.gif
Edited by Chris J - 11/16/13 at 9:33am
post #5270 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

As XTC put it "Science Friction, burns my fingers..." biggrin.gif

But it is fun to poke face in there and see them argue about which 3Amp glass fuse on the IEC power socket has the best sound and in which direction to install it so you get the better sound. biggrin.gif

xD good point 

post #5271 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyris View Post

You're not the only person I've seen who calls it that. Truth be told, I've never been there. I think rabid objectivism is just as bad as rabid subjectivism. Both are trying to force a point--in the latter case it's "spend more money and do any random thing that's different and it totally improves the sound", whereas in the former case it's "your hearing is wrong--the measurements say...."

I'll just listen to my music in peace, thank you very much. That's not to say I don't want to learn more about what's actually going on at the electrical or physical level, and I appreciate your posts about the former. It's nice to be able to learn about stuff without all the drama that erupts when people's pet ideologies are upset.

the rabid objectivists seem to like bludgeoning people into submission with "science and psychology"

personally, one of my favourite pieces of music is this terrible sounding, low bit rate MP3 file taken from a bad sounding casstte. but the musical performance is transcendent...........for me anyway.
it's about the music, sometimes we ALL forget that.
I'm just as guilty as anyone else. redface.gif
post #5272 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
...
it's about the music, sometimes we ALL forget that.
I'm just as guilty as anyone else. redface.gif

Amen to that Brother!

post #5273 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


the rabid objectivists seem to like bludgeoning people into submission with "science and psychology"

personally, one of my favourite pieces of music is this terrible sounding, low bit rate MP3 file taken from a bad sounding casstte. but the musical performance is transcendent...........for me anyway.
it's about the music, sometimes we ALL forget that.
I'm just as guilty as anyone else. redface.gif

 

I have a 128kbps mp3 of a song that was never released on CD, only on cassette and vinyl. The only extant digital copy was clearly ripped from a crappy cassette player and from a well-worn copy of the album. I've looked on many occasions to see if anybody had ripped a higher quality version, but nobody seems to have. I still manage to enjoy it because it was associated with a good time in my life, and because concentrating on the artifacts just isn't fun.

 

I have an even worse recording that there's absolutely no chance I'll ever find a better version of. Basically, somebody taped a 2007 concert at the UN headquarters in New York, where Ennio Morricone conducted selections from the soundtrack to The Mission. The arrangement of Gabriel's Oboe they did is simply sublime. Problem is, the audio I have is a rip from a YouTube video that was in was 240p and was uploaded in 2009 or thereabouts. We're looking at 56 kbps or so tops. It sounds like absolute horseplop, but the performance is so amazing I listen to it regardless.

post #5274 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyris View Post
 

 

I have a 128kbps mp3 of a song that was never released on CD, only on cassette and vinyl. The only extant digital copy was clearly ripped from a crappy cassette player and from a well-worn copy of the album. I've looked on many occasions to see if anybody had ripped a higher quality version, but nobody seems to have. I still manage to enjoy it because it was associated with a good time in my life, and because concentrating on the artifacts just isn't fun.

 

I have an even worse recording that there's absolutely no chance I'll ever find a better version of. Basically, somebody taped a 2007 concert at the UN headquarters in New York, where Ennio Morricone conducted selections from the soundtrack to The Mission. The arrangement of Gabriel's Oboe they did is simply sublime. Problem is, the audio I have is a rip from a YouTube video that was in was 240p and was uploaded in 2009 or thereabouts. We're looking at 56 kbps or so tops. It sounds like absolute horseplop, but the performance is so amazing I listen to it regardless.

A good point, 

 

There's a lot of live music I have fond memories of. And I come from a member of muscians, still when it comes to recordings I like to keep them at their best. My father for example is an excellent guitarist, I've recorded him once.. the quality was terrible and I lost the recording but, I remember his music. He remembers his music, his friends remember his music and eventually another member of our family will end up with his talent. So I can live without having a recording him, as far as music goes I like to enjoy it. Hence is why I like to learn from the OBJECTIVE Nazi's, but I like to keep some of the silliness in my own audio beliefs, keeps me BALANCED muhahahaha

 

that said, the DT 880 is a nice headphone, and I even I still have a lovely pair of Koss TD 75s in my drawer... I listen to so many terrible mp3s through them and they sounded great, and those horrid mp3's still sound pretty terrible... but I like the TD 75 and hopefully some day I'll pass it onto one my own kids, and start the journey into Hi Fi audio again, and knowing my luck I'm sure I'll end up with a AudioPhile kid and with a crazy Muscial Master Nephew or something, so the differances in us make the community around us better. 

 

That said I find it a shame to ruin a good memory with limits in technology, my memory works just fine I can re live those moments just fine, without needing to hear them. Speaking of which here's another fun story about our ears

 

Ramblings (Click to show)
While back I had a friend I really cared, about well I liked her a lot, anyways we were all sitting around one day enjoy a lecture, and I just remember literally falling apart at listening to her answer a question during the Q&A. Just the sound of her voice, really had a physical impact on me, and it was coming out of some gawd awful tweeter ugh but I don't remember artifacts or the distortion, just her voice. What she sound, how it sounded. My point being as Argyis mentioned quality isn't nessicary for enjoyment.
 
So my point is it's good to have the OBEJECTIONIST Nazi's and the CABLES ARE AMAZING guys in one place, keeps us all level in a sense lol. After all everything is perspective, all in the brain. Not sure there is an objective measure that will tell me why on that day, what my friend said had such a profound effect on me... seriously best thing I've heard ever... yea it was chemicals that made it so awesome but why. Why those chemicals on that day, during that Lecture ect... ect... so to each his own. You never know what's going to set u off so to speak 
post #5275 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mshenay View Post

A good point, 

There's a lot of live music I have fond memories of. And I come from a member of muscians, still when it comes to recordings I like to keep them at their best. My father for example is an excellent guitarist, I've recorded him once.. the quality was terrible and I lost the recording but, I remember his music. He remembers his music, his friends remember his music and eventually another member of our family will end up with his talent. So I can live without having a recording him, as far as music goes I like to enjoy it. Hence is why I like to learn from the OBJECTIVE Nazi's, but I like to keep some of the silliness in my own audio beliefs, keeps me BALANCED muhahahaha

that said, the DT 880 is a nice headphone, and I even I still have a lovely pair of Koss TD 75s in my drawer... I listen to so many terrible mp3s through them and they sounded great, and those horrid mp3's still sound pretty terrible... but I like the TD 75 and hopefully some day I'll pass it onto one my own kids, and start the journey into Hi Fi audio again, and knowing my luck I'm sure I'll end up with a AudioPhile kid and with a crazy Muscial Master Nephew or something, so the differances in us make the community around us better. 

That said I find it a shame to ruin a good memory with limits in technology, my memory works just fine I can re live those moments just fine, without needing to hear them. Speaking of which here's another fun story about our ears
Ramblings (Click to show)
While back I had a friend I really cared, about well I liked her a lot, anyways we were all sitting around one day enjoy a lecture, and I just remember literally falling apart at listening to her answer a question during the Q&A. Just the sound of her voice, really had a physical impact on me, and it was coming out of some gawd awful tweeter ugh but I don't remember artifacts or the distortion, just her voice. What she sound, how it sounded. My point being as Argyis mentioned quality isn't nessicary for enjoyment.
 
So my point is it's good to have the OBEJECTIONIST Nazi's and the CABLES ARE AMAZING guys in one place, keeps us all level in a sense lol. After all everything is perspective, all in the brain. Not sure there is an objective measure that will tell me why on that day, what my friend said had such a profound effect on me... seriously best thing I've heard ever... yea it was chemicals that made it so awesome but why. Why those chemicals on that day, during that Lecture ect... ect... so to each his own. You never know what's going to set u off so to speak 

My uncle also plays a type of guitar (Arabic) called Oud and he was really good at it. I used to record him with my Sony Ericsson phone and then listen to it later and try to copy him tongue.gif. The quality was pretty bad, but nevertheless, I enjoyed it a lot. I didn't even know it was low quality, I just listened. Anyway, learning Oud was very hard, it needed time and skill. A lot of it. Currently I have a couple of Arabic instruments like the Dumbuk and an instrument called Mrwas. I'm decent at playing them, but nothing special, I'm still learning. Next week I'm getting Bongos! biggrin.gif
post #5276 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by xkonfuzed View Post


My uncle also plays a type of guitar (Arabic) called Oud and he was really good at it. I used to record him with my Sony Ericsson phone and then listen to it later and try to copy him tongue.gif. The quality was pretty bad, but nevertheless, I enjoyed it a lot. I didn't even know it was low quality, I just listened. Anyway, learning Oud was very hard, it needed time and skill. A lot of it. Currently I have a couple of Arabic instruments like the Dumbuk and an instrument called Mrwas. I'm decent at playing them, but nothing special, I'm still learning. Next week I'm getting Bongos! biggrin.gif

Nice, I was a  bassist for a while... got to busy to pratice and when I finally made time for partice... some one stole my Bass xD so that said I'm down to just listen now. And yes I used to play my bass with my DT 880, I'd plug the bass into my Indeed G3 and the DT 880 into the indeed lol it was divine! 

post #5277 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mshenay View Post
 

Well there are two of us who have got the exact same results with different headphones and amps apprently

 

I found in both my HE 400 and DT 880, I get better extension on both ends, the bass on my DT 880 still shocks me :O [and I don't eq] so again better extenision on the highs, and a deep tighter more visceral bass, also a much better sense of instrument seperation

 

actually here's a easy way to demonstrate it. Take a pair of sunglasses... rub your fingers on them [and use dirty oily fingers] on them... look through them... what you see is what "se" sounds like. Get some glass cleaner and clean the glasses... then look again and what you see if what "balanced" sounds like. 

 

The sound is more clear, more coherent. It's the bass is heavier, the mids have more weight and body, the highs better extensision and the sound stage and mirco details are most great! Again like looking through clean glass after having it all smudy for so long 

Hmm, I'm still very skeptical. :P Even if the benefits are there, could they perhaps be better achieved using your funds to take an alternative route (different DAC, amp, etc)? Though, even if that is the case, that wouldn't detract from the validity of balancing, assuming it does make a difference. If one already has the appropriate gear and they are willing to spend money in order to etch out those last few improvements, I understand. Heck, I spent twenty bucks on a three inch mini to mini cable from Headroom just for the convenience (couldn't find smaller cables in my local area), and it made my portable listening experience a lot less haphazard. Walking around with the Pro 900 cable (hate that headphone now. Sold it), and a six foot mini to mini cable attached to my pa2v2, was horribly inconvenient. 

 

Edit: I think I have a bit of skepticism about balancing with regard to consumer's bias. After spending a bunch of money someone may be seeking out qualities that aren't actually there. Regardless, my skepticism leads me to no conclusion. 


Edited by Sonic Atrocity - 11/18/13 at 4:43am
post #5278 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyris View Post
 

You're not the only person I've seen who calls it that. Truth be told, I've never been there. I think rabid objectivism is just as bad as rabid subjectivism. Both are trying to force a point--in the latter case it's "spend more money and do any random thing that's different and it totally improves the sound", whereas in the former case it's "your hearing is wrong--the measurements say...."

 

I'll just listen to my music in peace, thank you very much. That's not to say I don't want to learn more about what's actually going on at the electrical or physical level, and I appreciate your posts about the former. It's nice to be able to learn about stuff without all the drama that erupts when people's pet ideologies are upset.

Ahh, I must admit I'm a pretty hard objectivist when it comes to sound. Though, I do think the suggestion that science has yet to account for certain properties in sound is quite intriguing, and I think it's more plausible than most would like to think. 

post #5279 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity View Post

Ahh, I must admit I'm a pretty hard objectivist when it comes to sound. Though, I do think the suggestion that science has yet to account for certain properties in sound is quite intriguing, and I think it's more plausible than most would like to think. 

[OT] The issue with many objectivists is a distinct lack of understanding based on a non-faltering system of beliefs and a lack of relevant information. Let me give an example: a few months back someone posted about a given CD player making compressed discs sound less ...well... compressed. How is that possible? Surely, it's some subjective fool being guided by the placebo of a new purchase. Or is it? If one looks at the work of Thomas Lund (there are vids on Youtube) on the linearity of DA converters fed by a clipped signal, it's easy to see how one implementation distorts and the other doesn't allowing for a much less fatiguing presentation to the listener. And so it goes; there are no simple answers to complicated questions. [/OT]

smily_headphones1.gif

Edit: typo
Edited by Shaffer - 11/18/13 at 5:42am
post #5280 of 7840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity View Post
 

Ahh, I must admit I'm a pretty hard objectivist when it comes to sound. Though, I do think the suggestion that science has yet to account for certain properties in sound is quite intriguing, and I think it's more plausible than most would like to think. 

 

I lean more objectivist than subjectivist myself. Where I draw the line is the evangelist aspect, where some people just feel like they need to spread "the word" about their knowledge to everybody. At the end of the day audio is a very personal thing--if you want to understand what's happening better, then more power to you. If you just want to believe that magic pixies flutter around inside your gear, and that more expensive = more pixies = better audio, well, that's up to you, but don't ever expect me to loan you money. :p

 

I can sort of see the reason for the evangelist objectivist attitude--sometimes people going around and telling newcomers to the hobby that "Oh, you don't like headphone x, well buy a different amp, or a different DAC, or a different cable, and that 12 dB spike in the treble or that huge hump in the mid-bass disappears. Night and day difference!" just makes me want to go Hulk.

 

I feel especially bad for the people who believe that line of reasoning, spend a bunch of money, miss their return window, and then are stuck with a headphone that they fundamentally don't like and can't unload easily, and $$$ worth of unneeded equipment to go with it. I feel even worse when I watch them post "Yeah! You're right! Night and day! It's so much better...uh...", which is obviously just them trying to convince themselves their extra money made a difference. Over time the posts are less and less enthusiastic, and six months later their headphone is up in the FS section in order to finance something else.

 

All of this can be avoided if people had realistic expectations for how much of a difference upstream gear can make. That's made a lot more difficult with all the anecdotal accounts of massive improvements (see: more pixies). I can see how people can come to believe that the pixies will save them. Nobody wants to admit that they got a dog. They want to believe that there's some way they can salvage their situation. But at some point you have to know when to stop throwing good money after bad and just admit that you don't like something.

 

But this is all stuff where people pretty much need to work out for themselves where they stand. Like I said before, audio is highly individual. Where I differ from the evangelist objectivists is that I don't mind putting all this down in a post like this one, but I won't go around beating people over the head with it and trying to make them feel stupid or inferior if they don't see things my way. I post because I want to try to help people, not indoctrinate them.

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