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The Beyerdynamic DT880 Discussion thread - Page 338

post #5056 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity View Post
 

I'm in Toronto. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD HAVE ME OVER FOR A LISTENING SESSION AND I CAN LIVE WITH YOU. 

 

 

 

... kidding of course, even about the listening session. Would you ever come to a headphone meet in Toronto though? :)


I lived in TDot for 27 years, raised in Rexdale... Which I understand now is pure Hood... :D

 

Toronto might be a bit of a stretch with that 24 hour drive and all, possibly a Montreal PQ or Moncton NB meet. Better yet a Halifax meet would be amazing as I think there are 3 or 4 of us down here.

:beerchug:

post #5057 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity View Post
 

You've equalized your headphones eh? I'm glad to hear that detail still remains, and that the lower register actually becomes clearer as a result of getting rid of spikes. Makes me look forward to these bad boys even more. :) 

 

I have a question for you though. When you say that when the fundamental character of the headphones change then that is indicative of going too far, and I accept that may very well be true. However, would you say that equalizing the DT880 until it has a flat (neutral) response is going too far? I am all about a flat response, and I actually bought the DT880 with this in mind - worried I have made a bad decision. :S 

 

If you have bad news for me, then I can accept it. *first world problems* hahahah

 

Not at all. In fact, that's more or less what this EQ technique is supposed to accomplish. The DT880 is an excellent candidate for this technique, since its "flaws" (if you really want to call them that) are very minor. It is fundamentally a slightly bright-leaning headphone. This technique edges it a bit more toward a theoretical neutral.

 

You certainly have not made a bad choice if you're after a flat response. A bit of extra energy in the treble can be brought down. It's much more difficult to go in the other direction, if the headphone doesn't actually have much response up there to work with. The great thing about the DT880's treble is the extension--unlike some of the other contenders of its day (back in the early 2000s), its response keeps going to 20 kHz. It's easy enough to "take a little off the top" and still have plenty of resolution.

 

Or, you might find you like it just as it is. Many people find no fault with the DT880's balance, or find that amp matching adds or subtracts 1-2 dB in just the right place to make them near perfect. I could certainly live with them stock, but since I only use them for stationary listening, there's no reason not to mine out the absolute best potential they have to offer.

post #5058 of 10424

The one thing I will say about the DT880 is that, unless you've never previously heard any equipment even approaching decent, it probably won't blow you away the first time you hear it. I had heard enough headphones before to know it was exactly what I was looking for within ten minutes, but even then it wasn't quite the brightness or detail monster I was expecting. That's not to say the detail isn't there, but the DT880 doesn't shove it in your face.

 

Which, really, makes sense. If it did that, it'd be adding something that wasn't there. A lot of details in audio recordings are subtle. The DT880 doesn't do much to make them stand out any more than they would ordinarily. In fact, just the other day I noticed some "new" (to me) notes in my favorite piece of music which I've listened to literally over a thousand times.* It was literally like casting your gaze around your bedroom and your focus randomly falling in a corner, where you spot some dust you'd never looked at before. That piece was one of the first I listened to when testing out my new DT880 three years ago. If it was going to spotlight that harmony part, it would have done it then.

 

So don't expect a total revelation at first. Throw every genre you have at it, though, and it will render them all at least satisfactorily. That's it's greatest strength, I believe. There are places where I think it could be improved (a little more sub bass extension, perhaps), but my hypothetical ideal headphone would pretty much start with the DT880 tonality and presentation.

 

*Unfortunately, I'm finding it difficult to un-hear them now, and I tend to concentrate on that part instead of the melodic line.

post #5059 of 10424

Well, thanks to both of you for your answers. I am glad to hear I didn't totally blow it by getting the DT880, haha. I have listened to them twice before. I remember at first being totally underwhelmed, finding them lacking detail and whatnot. I wasn't used to their presentation, their fit, or there more neutral frequency response (I was comparing them to my KRK KNS 8400 from a clip+, and then using a fiio portable amp to drive the dt880 250 ohm). After reading about their subtlety and realism I went back. After listening for about five or ten minutes I found myself appreciating their qualities. 

 

Now, there is yet another thing I am curious about (I know, I have a lot of questions. Sorry :( ). When you say "take a little off the top", I assume you are referring to lowering the upper frequencies a bit in order to achieve a flat response. But, when you say "and still have plenty of resolution" are you suggesting that lowering the amplitude of frequencies reduces resolution and/or detail? Perhaps I am not quite understanding these terms correctly... 

 

I hope I don't lose too much detail in equalization. :S :S 

 

Indeed, I am COMPULSIVE about having a flat frequency response. This may sound a bit arrogant, and like I'm bragging, but I'm not really meaning to... I swear my hearing is like really, really sensitive. When I was a kid certain loud noises would bother my ears that didn't bother others, and even though I have probably done some damage (tons of way too loud headphone listening in highschool with Sony v600,... or v6.... whichever the crappiest one is... I was also in a metal band and never used earplugs when we jammed) I swear I can hear a lot more detail, and subtle nuances than most people I know. It's like my compulsive mannerisms (diagnosed with severe OCD as a teen) have made me more sensitive to sense perceptions (this was once suggested to me by a doctor, in reference to why I was bothered by certain sensations of all types). 

Anyhow, it's just a thought, and I have no ego about it. It's just something I have always kind of wondered. I can't wait for christmas when I can get an ODAC and O2 :D. I am SO EXCITED. 

post #5060 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post
 


I lived in TDot for 27 years, raised in Rexdale... Which I understand now is pure Hood... :D

 

Toronto might be a bit of a stretch with that 24 hour drive and all, possibly a Montreal PQ or Moncton NB meet. Better yet a Halifax meet would be amazing as I think there are 3 or 4 of us down here.

:beerchug: and you can live here and use my headphones and I will feed you.

Awww, thanks man!

post #5061 of 10424

Okay, I'm going to break it down for you. The DT880 has a typical response for an early 2000s era neutral-class dynamic, meaning it has a slight upward bow through the lower midrange, slightly rolled off sub bass, and a smooth tapering off after about 1 kHz.* After that, it has a bump in the lower treble of around 6-8 dB, which is a fairly noticeable spike but which isn't excessive. Many headphones and IEMs with a V-shaped response (big midbass/big lower treble) have a much taller spike in this region. Lower treble energy tends to catch the lower end of cymbals and sibilance and will give snare drums extra crack. From there, the treble gradually tapers off through 20 kHz, which is intentional. If it continued at baseline, the headphone would be unnaturally bright because higher frequencies dissipate as they travel through the air. Since a headphone transducer is about an inch from your eardrum, it needs to simulate this effect order to sound natural. The starting point and degree of intentional roll off is a matter of philosophy--Beyer tends to favor a shallower roll off that begins at around 1 kHz, and as a consequence their headphones tend to have a brighter, more spacious sound but a less forward midrange than, say, the Sennheiser dynamics that competed with it in its time.

 

Detail is one of those nebulous areas of headphones (and audio in general). Lots of people have lots of different beliefs about what it is and how it's affected by gear choice and EQ, and this is just my philosophy on the matter. The thing is, you can heighten apparent detail just by hyping up the treble, which is a strategy used by some lower end models in order to cover up lack of true treble extension. If you undo this hyping, you're not really eliminating anything. You're just making certain elements that the headphone tended to emphasize less forward in the balance. In other words, you cannot affect the base resolution of the driver just by altering the frequency contour. When I say "taking a little off the top," I simply mean the baseline treble level in the DT880 is present and extended enough that even after peaks are notched out, the sound doesn't fundamentally change into something warmer and smoother, which is what would happen if the treble were not well extended or strong enough in level.

 

Initially it might sound less detailed, but that's only because those elements are no longer artificially hyped. They're still there, which is something you can prove to yourself just by bypassing and enabling the EQ back and forth. In fact, like I said before, I sometimes have an easier time finding stuff deep in the mix because the extra shimmer and glare from the lower treble spike is no longer catching my ear.

 

I think you're psyching yourself out a bit. Just relax and, when you finally get the chance, give your DT880 some good, long headtime before you worry about EQ or anything else. You might like them just as they are.

 

*This so far is one of two "ideal" responses, the other being the typical electrostat/planar response, which is a flat line from DC to about 1 kHz, perhaps with a very slight rise up through the 1 kHz mark.

post #5062 of 10424

Wow, that was really informative and actually reaffirmed some of what I already knew, but with more concrete knowledge. Thanks. :) 

 

When I was referring to a reduction of volume at certain frequencies I was referring to how an equalizer does that in the digital domain, and I was wondering if equalizer reductions are kinda the same as volume reductions in that they result in a loss of bits (of data), and therefore a loss of detail. 

 

Regardless, your description of the later roll-off in the headphone and how that mimics the dissipation of higher frequencies in speakers is really informative, and something for me to keep in mind. 

 

It makes me wonder how far along the spectrum I should EQ. 

 

Again, thanks for your post, and I apologize for my annoying tendency to be a control freak about this stuff :P. You're right, I should relax ;). 

post #5063 of 10424

You're going to want to confine your corrective EQ to the range between 3 kHz and 10 kHz. Human hearing isn't really sensitive enough outside this range to be entirely accurate*, and in any case, deviations from neutral in the lower regions tend to be broad in nature, which makes them more difficult to pinpoint. The DT880 is pretty flat below the lower treble, so there isn't too much to worry about here. If you end up wanting a bit more bass and/or lower midrange, you can set up a low shelf with a gentle roll off. I used to have a 3 dB one set up below 150 Hz, which I used for non-classical, but as time went on I came to appreciate the stock balance for everything.

 

I'm not intimately familiar with the way EQ works on the digital level. Hopefully somebody else here will have more to add. Generally, though, I would say that this is the sort of thing you don't want to worry too much about--you'll drive yourself batty considering all the possible variables in a system that can theoretically degrade the signal, especially since a lot of them (e.g. the winding of the voice coils, the cable that goes through the headband to the right driver, etc.) are things you can have little to no control over.

 

*The notches above that I have in my own curve are an average of the many times I tested, since they tended to shift around a bit from run to run.

post #5064 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightboy140 View Post
 

So this probably came up before but I didn't really wanna read 300+ pages of stuff...But can anyone here recable the dt880s to 4pin xlr?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post
 

Thanks!

They are the LCD 3's and I get to enjoy the audio bliss for another two weeks and will that time ever fly by quickly. I'd love to hear the LCD 2's to see if there is a $1K difference... I don't imagine I could tell but some would sure be able too.

 

Yes I assume it is the amp in the E09K that adds the darkness just like the E10, the separate DAC's themselves should be quite similar, I'll have to try the Conductor's Line Out and the E17's Line Out directly into the MK IV just for schiit's and giggles.

 

Now we just need a demo program for the X and the closed version of the LCD's.

:beerchug: 

Man I hate to say it but I'd be willing to bet the LCD X would b a nice upgrade to my balanced 880 q.q

post #5065 of 10424

Well, I just sent my dt880 into zynsonix for a dual entry mod + new 4pin xlr cable :D

Can't wait for its return.

I had the dt880s then hd800s and now dt880s again, and listening to them again I am still so shocked at how well a pair of 200 dollar cans can perform it's just amazing. 

post #5066 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightboy140 View Post
 

Well, I just sent my dt880 into zynsonix for a dual entry mod + new 4pin xlr cable :D

Can't wait for its return.

I had the dt880s then hd800s and now dt880s again, and listening to them again I am still so shocked at how well a pair of 200 dollar cans can perform it's just amazing.

:D welcome to the club. I think you'll notice an audible improvement, I don't know if it's placebo but something about aftermarket cables makes the DT880 sound better. I also bought my Bifrost Uber the same time I got my recabled headphones back haha

post #5067 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightboy140 View Post
 

Well, I just sent my dt880 into zynsonix for a dual entry mod + new 4pin xlr cable :D

Can't wait for its return.

I had the dt880s then hd800s and now dt880s again, and listening to them again I am still so shocked at how well a pair of 200 dollar cans can perform it's just amazing. 

 

What's your opinion of the DT880 vs. the HD800?

post #5068 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 

 

What's your opinion of the DT880 vs. the HD800?

Well...one retails for 1500 the other retails for 379...so there's that and there are major differences.

Biggest ones for me:

1. SOUNDSTAGE: oh my goodness hd800 soundstage is unbelievable for a pair of headphones.

2, Imaging: no debates there. hd800 wins again, but the dt880 isn't that bad either.

 

The gray areas for me were transparency and detail, idk if it's just me or this specific pair, the detail retrieval from the dt880s isn't that shabby compared to hd800s. Just the other day I heard this water dripping sound in the background that I never noticed using the hd800s. like i said...it could've just been me.

Transparency: Well the hd800s is extremely transparent and listening to classical music with them is just blissful. But I listen to both classical and vocal, and the hd800s make the lead vocalist voices sound a bit thin compared to the dt880s.

 

It's just my opinions and it could just be my ears because I don't remember the dt880s this good the first time I had them. And the first time I didn't have the manufaktur edition.

post #5069 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightboy140 View Post
 

Well...one retails for 1500 the other retails for 379...so there's that and there are major differences.

Biggest ones for me:

1. SOUNDSTAGE: oh my goodness hd800 soundstage is unbelievable for a pair of headphones.

2, Imaging: no debates there. hd800 wins again, but the dt880 isn't that bad either.

 

The gray areas for me were transparency and detail, idk if it's just me or this specific pair, the detail retrieval from the dt880s isn't that shabby compared to hd800s. Just the other day I heard this water dripping sound in the background that I never noticed using the hd800s. like i said...it could've just been me.

Transparency: Well the hd800s is extremely transparent and listening to classical music with them is just blissful. But I listen to both classical and vocal, and the hd800s make the lead vocalist voices sound a bit thin compared to the dt880s.

 

It's just my opinions and it could just be my ears because I don't remember the dt880s this good the first time I had them. And the first time I didn't have the manufaktur edition.

 

Thanks.

I was just wondering what $1500 does for me! :wink_face:

 

BTW, I once heard a pair of balanced HD600 with a $2,000 balanced output amp and a $2,000 DAC.

The system sounded amazing!

And, no that is no typo.

It was a balanced pair of HD600s!

post #5070 of 10424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 

 

Thanks.

I was just wondering what $1500 does for me! :wink_face:

 

BTW, I once heard a pair of balanced HD600 with a $2,000 balanced output amp and a $2,000 DAC.

The system sounded amazing!

And, no that is no typo.

It was a balanced pair of HD600s!

Ayeeeee. Awesome dacs and amps just really bring the headphones out :D

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