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The Beyerdynamic DT880 Discussion thread - Page 239

post #3571 of 7967

For optimal control of the driver the headphone/driver pair should have a proper damping factor (ratio between headphone Ohms and amp impedance). No worries for degrading sound quality if the factor > 10 according to Innerfidelity, although this might not be a "universal" rule.

 

Some tube amps have a high impedance (as compared to solid state amps) making them not suitable for low impedance headphones. The WA7 that I'm about to buy has a switch for < 70 Ohms/>70 Ohm loads, and seems to work really well with IEMs even... .

 

You can find more info here:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/comparison-beyerdynamic-dt-880-32-ohm-dt-880-250-ohm-and-dt-880-600-ohm-headphones-page-2


Edited by BDM-Fi - 6/13/13 at 11:39pm
post #3572 of 7967

I've read elsewhere that a damping factor as low as 8 will work okay, but I generally put a lot of weight on Tyll's findings, so if he says 10, I say that's a good rule of thumb. It's a nice, easy computation to boot.

 

Of course in order for this to be useful, manufacturers need to be forthcoming with output impedance in their specs, which is something very few are willing to do. It's not necessarily because the results are universally terrible. The Sansa Clip+, for instance, has an output impedance of a little over 1 ohm if I remember correctly. Not exactly stellar when compared to the < 0.1 figures posted by Schiit equipment, for example, but certainly acceptable to run most of what's out there while attaining the proper damping factor. I can confirm that the largely functionally identical Clip Zip will run a 250 ohm DT880 up to medium volume without any noticeable tonal shift, but it's output level is limited by the piddly amount of voltage put out by the weeny amp.

 

No, its not reported simply because so few people care. Sadly and paradoxically, it's the unsophisticated listeners who stand the greatest chance of their headphones being affected by mismatch, since consumer-level stuff is often low impedance/high sensitivity in order to pursue the highest possible SPL and to promote the best battery life in portable equipment. But they're also the least likely to notice, so why get them all worked up? It's the practical audiophile, the one who doesn't want to carry around a brick of amps and DACs, the one who just wants to plug their low impedance BA IEM right into their smartphone, that is affected.

 

Not that I blame equipment manufacturers. How many people are we really talking about here? Take the already small audiophile segment, then divide it further based on how many actually understand the concept of damping factor and thus why their smartphone audio sounds "way off," and you'll see a depressingly small percentage. It's probably not even worth the cost of the ink to print it.

 

Thankfully, this stuff can be tested in the field, and I've seen numerous figures for various pieces of equipment. Golden Ears has a small but growing section that lists output impedance figures for lots of amps, PMPs, and smartphones.


Edited by Argyris - 6/14/13 at 12:18am
post #3573 of 7967
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post

Er, could you explain how that necessarily follows. Don't tube amps drive 250 ohm loads? 

The ugly, nasty true is:
It Depends.
What is the output impedance of the tube amp?

Does the tube amp have a transformer coupled output stage? In this case the output impdedance will be fairly low and you can drive low impedance headphones.

Or is it an OTL tube amp? OTL = Output Transformerless. In this case the output impedance will be high and probably more suited for 600 Ohm headphones.

Or is it a hybrid with a solid state output stage? In this case it will have a very low output impedance.

And if you want to drive a 600 Ohm load, does the headphone amp have enough output voltage?
post #3574 of 7967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

Does the tube amp have a transformer coupled output stage? In this case the output impdedance will be fairly low and you can drive low impedance headphones.

 

 

 

My question was partly based on the premise that 250 ohms isn't a particularly low impedance.

post #3575 of 7967
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post

 

 

My question was partly based on the premise that 250 ohms isn't a particularly low impedance.

 

A tube amp with an output transformer will typically have a low enough output impedance to drive a 32 Ohm pair of Byers. For example, the more expensive Woo Audio amps. The cheaper tube headphone amps don't normally have an output transformer so will have an output impedance of approx. 60-100 Ohms. For example, the La Figaro 336C They should be fine for driving a pair of 250 Ohm Beyers, but preferably you would want to match it with a pair of 600 Ohm Beyers to get a higher damping factor. So it comes down to what tube amp do you have?
post #3576 of 7967

600ohm on a ZXR soundcard vs. 250 ohm on the same sound card - which would you go with?

 

I am leaning on the 250 for the price and since I could use them on other devices without an amp (obviously would want one in those cases)

post #3577 of 7967
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdelrio22 View Post

600ohm on a ZXR soundcard vs. 250 ohm on the same sound card - which would you go with?

 

I am leaning on the 250 for the price and since I could use them on other devices without an amp (obviously would want one in those cases)

I would suggest the 250 Ohm version.

 

The real answer is:  how much voltage can your soundcard output?

A 600 Ohm DT880 will require more voltage than a 250 Ohm DT880.

post #3578 of 7967

Did some quick research and found out that the amplifier on the ZXR is 80mW. I think based on that, I should consider getting the 250ohm set instead.

 

http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=699412


Edited by jdelrio22 - 6/16/13 at 8:28am
post #3579 of 7967
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdelrio22 View Post

Did some quick research and found out that the amplifier on the ZXR is 80mW. I think based on that, I should consider getting the 250ohm set instead.

 

http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=699412

Or you could get the 32 Ohm version?

post #3580 of 7967

Hey guys, I've had the DT880 600ohm for a while now that I've been running though a Fiio E7. 
I'm looking to getting an Amp and DAC, I've looked into the Schiit Magni and Modi stack and haven't been able to find lots of support on whether its a good match.

 

Anyone have this setup and have positive results?

 

I know that theres lots of support for tube amps but they seem pretty expensive and I'm just curious if I'll be compromising SQ by getting the solid state magni.

post #3581 of 7967

How does DT880 Pro 250 ohm compare to HD600s?  I got the HD600s with fiio e17+e9 and I need a headphone to sound very different than my HD600.  I was recommended this

post #3582 of 7967

Was asked this question on another thread - I own the DT880 and HD600 (as well as the K701).  This might help .....

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post

Hi FULLAUDIO

 

Thanks for the impressions.  I am a reasonably long-time owner of all 3 headphones DT880 (mine are 600ohm), K701, and HD600.  I would encourage you (rather than quickly swapping the headphones) to actually spend a day with each - and then see if your ideas on the sound of each actually change.

 

You may find that after spending longer time with a headphone like the HD600, and only the HD600 - then switching to the Beyer or AKG - that you will then change your mind on which is most balanced.  Instead of the HD600 being overly warm and lacking energy - you may find that they Beyers / AKGs instead sound overly bright.  It's an interesting exercise.  Our brains adjust to what they are used to - then compare other sounds to that base.  As the base changes - so do our impressions of a particular headphone.

 

Anyway - it's a good idea for a thread - I'll also throw in my quick impressions of all 3.  My set-up is Foobar (PC) > optical out to an Audio-gd NFB-12, then either direct to the headphones or via my LD MKIV (the amp doesn't change the contrast, nor my impression of each).

 

DT880.

Quite flat  - but with elevated high-end.  Bass extends pretty well and is nicely defined.  Mids appear slightly further back in the spectrum - particularly compared to the highs.  For me - it is the most detailed (like shining a spotlight on the music).  Has the smallest sound-stage of the 3 - but still great for almost any genre.  Very, very comfortable.  Definitely brighter than 'normal' sound.

 

K701
Again reasonably flat response - but with more emphasis on mid-range and highs.  Bass is recessed compared to mid-range and highs - but what is there is well defined, and IMO sounds really good.  Definitely the most bass-light of the 3.  Does a beautiful job of the mid-range - particularly acoustic and stringed instruments in general.  Widest soundstage of the 3 - by quite a margin.  Imaging is OK - sometimes struggles with center stage (not sure if that is particular recordings though).  Handles fast paced music pretty well.  Appears very detailed - but IMO the Beyer shows more actual detail in comparison.  Comfort because of the bumps in the headband is not great.  Because of this, I removed the bumps, added a small layer of foam, and then finished it with a soft lamb-skin leather layer.  It is now extremely comfortable.

 

HD600

Whilst I wouldn't call it exactly flat - I would say it gives (to my ears) the most natural presentation of the three.  It is the most life-like and has really good resolution and timbre.  Sound stage is close to the Beyers (marginally larger), but the imaging is better than both to me.  Has a little mid-bass bump, and gives the impression of slightly forward mids.   Appears slower than both the Beyer and AKG.  Appearance of less detail is often misleading - the detail is all there  - it just doesn't have a spotlight shone on it like the others.  Comfort is pretty good - although a bit clampy at times.  Over time they have become more comfortable for me - and sit between the Beyer and my (now modified) AKG.

 

Of the three headphones - with a good (well recorded) live performance - all three headphones sound superb - but the HD600 is the only one (if I close my eyes) that can actually give me the feeling that I am actually sitting in the audience - their tone, timbre and imaging really is superb.

 

Short summary (just my view):

Bass (quantity) - HD600 > DT880 > K701

Bass (quality) - DT880 > HD600 = K701 (just different presentation between the Senn and AKG)

Mid-range - HD600 > K701 > DT880

Highs (quantity) - DT880 > K701 > HD600

 

Sound-stage (size) - K701 > HD600 > DT880

Imaging - HD600 > DT880 =/> K701 (tough to call depends on recording)

Naturalness - HD600 >>>> K701 > DT880

Comfort - DT880 > HD600 > K701

 

I love all 3 headphones, and I probably spend equal time with each - depends on my mood.  They are all stellar performers for their price.

 
post #3583 of 7967

What's difference between 250 ohm pro and 600 ohm versions?  Is fiio e17+e9 combo good enough to power the 600 ohm?

post #3584 of 7967

I owned both.  IMO there is very little difference.

 

If you're not getting a tube amp or very powerful solid state - then I'd personally suggest going 250 ohm.  It just gives you more options.  That being said - I do enjoy my 600ohm with my Little Dot MKIV.

 

Also the Pro have a colied cable and much tighter clamp.  The 600 ohm only come in Premium (DT880) - which is looser fit, and straight cable.

post #3585 of 7967
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChosen0ne View Post

What's difference between 250 ohm pro and 600 ohm versions?  Is fiio e17+e9 combo good enough to power the 600 ohm?

Chosen One!

The E7 + E9 combo easily powers 600 Ohm DT880.

I would argue that you should try to get 600 Ohm version as you could use them with a OTL tube amp in the future.
Many say that the 250 and 600 sound the same.
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