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The Beyerdynamic DT880 Discussion thread - Page 236

post #3526 of 10430

This ^^  .... Argyris described them exactly as I hear them - and they are still bright - even from my LD MKIV.

 

I still can't get over the fact that anyone could describe the DT880 as dark blink.gif

 

@daleb - are you sure you don't have some sort of EQ/dsp working in the background?  Turn any enhancements off (including EQ) then see if impressions change.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daleb View Post

I know that buying a better amp should fix the soundstage problem, but that wouldn't fix the lack of neutrality...

 

 

This is the bit that gets me ... apart from the mids being maybe very slightly recessed compared to the highs - they are pretty neutral.  On the bright side (not dark) - but overall pretty neutral.

post #3527 of 10430

Like I said, I think there is something wrong with my unit, because even using a sine wave test you can tell they have less treble next to my HD280s, a headphone that is already dark...

 

I made sure I have nothing on, and nothing has changed. I actually have a special EQ system though that makes these sound pretty good, actually better then my 280s, but not $180 better. Probably something messed up on them. They keep making a constant clicking sound on the headband and earcups, and as I said in the first post, the box was punctured and dented in 2 places when I got it. I thought that didn't mean anything, because there is also the case inside to go with it, but maybe it did cause something?

 

Edit: Do people let you use their amps at head-fi meets? I'd like to see if the problems might be fixed by a good amp. If so, I'd probably have to return them anyways because I can't afford any new amps...


Edited by daleb - 6/8/13 at 7:56pm
post #3528 of 10430

My E11 barely drives my Pro's...

Take them to the meet and try them out on some proper amplifiers.

post #3529 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

My E11 barely drives my Pro's...

Take them to the meet and try them out on some proper amplifiers.

I shall most likely be doing that. Hopefully its just me not having much of an amp, and not that my unit is messed up. Well, actually, if the unit showed up broken then Amazon would pay for shipping back to get a new one...

 

Edit: Thinking about it, the lack of a soundstage is what is making me so critical of the sound. I was really excited about that aspect of open back headphones, and it was really my main reason for buying these, but there isn't any at all with the E11, I guess. Heck, I probably would have instantly said it was the most neutral headphone ever if I had just heard a soundstage when I first turned it on.


Edited by daleb - 6/8/13 at 8:07pm
post #3530 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

My E11 barely drives my Pro's...

Take them to the meet and try them out on some proper amplifiers.

 

Definitely a good suggestion. In the very least that will narrow down the list of possible issues.

 

I've never had the impression my pair changes fundamentally with different amps, though. In this way my experience pretty much accords with Brooko's. For instance, my old Kenwood receiver has an obvious impedance mismatch with the DT880 (the Kenny's output impedance is likely around 120 ohms, since that was the "standard" when it was made in the late 70s), and predictably it's a bit flabby and boosted in the bass and muted in the highs. Still not fundamentally different, and that's the greatest tonal shift I've heard with it.

 

As far as setting aside your expectations and worries, I think the best thing you can do is try them out on a decent amp (so you know for sure you're getting their best potential), and more importantly, just keep listening to them. Maybe pay attention to the things you think they do well, and try to expand that list. Either you'll get used to them, or you'll decide they're too far off the mark of what you're looking for.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daleb View Post

Edit: Thinking about it, the lack of a soundstage is what is making me so critical of the sound. I was really excited about that aspect of open back headphones, and it was really my main reason for buying these, but there isn't any at all with the E11, I guess. Heck, I probably would have instantly said it was the most neutral headphone ever if I had just heard a soundstage when I first turned it on.

 

 

I remember thinking their soundstage was weird the first time I heard it. It's like it spotlights anything that's centered between the two channels and makes all the other stuff fill in at a distance on both sides. It definitely sounded spaced out at first, but it wasn't the speaker-like effect I was expecting. It took a while to get used to it, and I almost felt like I was looking at something without my glasses on when I put on some of my classical, as though I was having trouble focusing. I eventually got used to it.

 

Incidentally, which headphone(s) have you heard that you thought had a large soundstage?


Edited by Argyris - 6/8/13 at 8:20pm
post #3531 of 10430

My M50 had an overwhelming amount of bass, making the DT990 look flaccid in comparison.  To think the DT880 has just as much perceivable bass than the M50 makes me confused.

 

Higher quality amps will clean things up a bit in the treble and tighten the bass up a good amount, but I can't see a lesser amp making the DT880 sound like an M50.

post #3532 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post

My M50 had an overwhelming amount of bass, making the DT990 look flaccid in comparison.  To think the DT880 has just as much perceivable bass than the M50 makes me confused.

 

Higher quality amps will clean things up a bit in the treble and tighten the bass up a good amount, but I can't see a lesser amp making the DT880 sound like an M50.

This. Seems so drastic.

post #3533 of 10430

Well the one M50 my friend has has absolutely no bass, so that's funny XD

 

Quote:

I remember thinking their soundstage was weird the first time I heard it. It's like it spotlights anything that's centered between the two channels and makes all the other stuff fill in at a distance on both sides. It definitely sounded spaced out at first, but it wasn't the speaker-like effect I was expecting. It took a while to get used to it, and I almost felt like I was looking at something without my glasses on when I put on some of my classical, as though I was having trouble focusing. I eventually got used to it.

 

Incidentally, which headphone(s) have you heard that you thought had a large soundstage?

 

Absolutely no headphone or speaker has generated a soundstage for me. Heck, real life has a very strange sound stage for me. As things get farther away, my ears interpret them as louder, fuzzy, and kind of distorted really. My ears are absolutely broken in the worst way possible XD The closest to making a soundstage would actually be my HD280s, which can almost but not quite get outside of the head while listening to the barbershop. the DT880s on the other hand don't even seem to reach the ear phone, they feel even closer to the center of my head even when a sound was playing out of just one ear.

 

Edit: I say "heck" a lot don't I? tongue.gif


Edited by daleb - 6/8/13 at 8:42pm
post #3534 of 10430

you've really never heard imaging or an open soundstage from speakers?

post #3535 of 10430

Other then left and right from the speakers, none at all. The only way I can enjoy speakers is if they're at most a foot or two in front of me. If they go past that, they start distorting just like how I hear everyone's voices in real life. I should totally get the "best ears ever" award.

 

I bought these because I want to hear this normal, "natural" sound that has positioning that makes you sit in awe at how things sound. I don't know if I'll ever get to hear audio positioning (real life or not) that both goes outside my head and isn't painful to my ears, though, so maybe its a good thing my DT880s don't have a soundstage?

 

Maybe that could be another reason I am disliking the DT880s, they're actually closer to a real life sound, what others would call natural, that I call hell. Granted, its not close enough to make it bother me enough for me to see it as a problem, but it might be enough to make me slightly uncomfortable to the sound.

 

Warning, egotistical statement below:

But all those sensory problems I have come with perks, mainly involving intelligence. I'm only 18, yet I'm working as a research assistant for a professor. In turn, we are working for the United States government! I wouldn't give up these perks to fix any of my sensory problems.


Edited by daleb - 6/8/13 at 10:24pm
post #3536 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by daleb View Post

Other then left and right from the speakers, none at all. The only way I can enjoy speakers is if they're at most a foot or two in front of me. If they go past that, they start distorting just like how I hear everyone's voices in real life. I should totally get the "best ears ever" award.

 

I bought these because I want to hear this normal, "natural" sound that has positioning that makes you sit in awe at how things sound. I don't know if I'll ever get to hear audio positioning (real life or not) that both goes outside my head and isn't painful to my ears, though, so maybe its a good thing my DT880s don't have a soundstage?

 

Maybe that could be another reason I am disliking the DT880s, they're actually closer to a real life sound, what others would call natural, that I call hell. Granted, its not close enough to make it bother me enough for me to see it as a problem, but it might be enough to make me slightly uncomfortable to the sound.

 

Warning, egotistical statement below:

But all those sensory problems I have come with perks, mainly involving intelligence. I'm only 18, yet I'm working as a research assistant for a professor. In turn, we are working for the United States government! I wouldn't give up these perks to fix any of my sensory problems.

 

I'd say it sounds like you might be expecting something different from what headphones as a whole* are able to provide. Sparing everybody a long(er), drawn out explanation, because of the way headphones work their soundstage is going to be mostly in the head, with limited projection outward. This is mainly because, with exceptions (see asterisk), the two channels are isolated. The brain still works out an image of sorts, but it cannot theoretically appear anywhere but along a flat plane from ear to ear.

 

That said, certain headphones manage to create the illusion of more depth. Nothing is ever going to come from in front of or behind you (unless you're listening to a binaural recording and have a head and ears shaped very much like the dummy head used for the recording, or else you're using a processing unit like the Smyth Realiser), but there can still be a sense that certain sonic elements are further away than others, and the sense of a "room" of sorts in which everything is being performed. This is because, like with sight (i.e. stereopsis), the comparison of perspective between one ear and the other isn't the only way the brain determines the position of a sound or the size of the venue in which it is heard. The signal itself contains information (e.g. more distant sounds have rolled off treble in comparison to closer ones, reverb trails, etc.) that is also used for this purpose, and the design, sonic signature, and frequency bandwidth of the headphone itself contribute as well.

 

So, basically, headphone soundstage is weird. It's something you definitely have to get used to and appreciate it for what it is, and it's a far more subtle and nuanced phenomenon than speaker soundstage.

 

You might never have heard a speaker soundstage because, well, most speakers (like most headphones) are pretty pitiful. In speakers, one of the things you lose first in a poor design is soundstage. This is because most designs consist of at least two different driver elements, and if the crossover and position in the cabinet are not properly calibrated, sound from each driver arrives at the ear at different times, messing up the illusion. And, of course, if you don't have the speakers placed properly (and far enough apart) or aren't sitting in the sweet spot, the effect fails.

 

Incidentally, have you ever tried crossfeed on headphones? It sounds like you might benefit from it. Some people swear by it and use it for all their listening. It has an effect on the sound signature, so I tend not to use it, but I've tried several different algorithms and they do have a noticeable effect. It's not going to make the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra sound like it's playing fifty feet in front of you, but it does move the whole stage forward some.

 

*I'm going to set aside "ear speaker" designs like the AKG K1000 here, since they're quite different from traditional headphones, mainly since the two channels aren't completely isolated from one another.

post #3537 of 10430

Sorry to double post (especially after the long, rambling nature of the previous one), but a rather obvious suggestion just hit me. If you're going to a meet, see if you can find another DT880 to try. It's a rather old model that most long-time Head-Fi'ers will have already heard, so maybe it's a bit optimistic to expect one to be there, but it would help determine whether or not your unit differs radically from the typical qualities of the design.

post #3538 of 10430

Thanks for the explanation! It is definitely not that I haven't heard high end speakers, though. I have heard anywhere from $20 speakers to $32,000 studio monitors, and they never ever sound good to me. Except my laptop speakers, because they sit only 2 feet in front of me out most, the second I walk away, they start to sound just as bad as all the others. None of them make a soundstage. I have tried some crossfeed with my headphones, but I can't hear it with the one DSP I have. Any versions I should try? I once upon a time upscaled my music to 5.1, then sent it back into stereo through dolby. Its a strange effect, but it was fun as a novelty.

 

I don't think any DT880s will be there, but I'll see.


Edited by daleb - 6/9/13 at 1:33am
post #3539 of 10430
Quote:
Originally Posted by daleb View Post

Thanks for the explanation! It is definitely not that I haven't heard high end speakers, though. I have heard anywhere from $20 speakers to $32,000 studio monitors, and they never ever sound good to me. Except my laptop speakers, because they sit only 2 feet in front of me out most, the second I walk away, they start to sound just as bad as all the others. None of them make a soundstage. I have tried some crossfeed with my headphones, but I can't hear it with the one DSP I have. Any versions I should try? I once upon a time upscaled my music to 5.1, then sent it back into stereo through dolby. Its a strange effect, but it was fun as a novelty.

 

I don't think any DT880s will be there, but I'll see.

Perhaps a visit to a competent audiologist would be enlightening.  In Austin, these folks are good http://rkaudiology.com/

 

Do I recall you're in the DFW area?  Bound to be somebody there. 

post #3540 of 10430

Its caused by a form of autism, so an audiologist won't help me out there :P

 

Anyways, I think I've realized its not that the DT880 doesn't have all the treble it claims to have, its just that it is very very polite in how its presented. It doesn't force it at all, its always very smooth. I'm used to really strong and aggressive feeling to the treble, and they don't have that. Makes me wonder how people can get fatigue from these...


Edited by daleb - 6/9/13 at 10:12am
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