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The Beyerdynamic DT880 Discussion thread - Page 231

post #3451 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by daleb View Post

How about the 32 ohm edition? Does it sound just as good as the others?

 

Read my post #3445 above.

I've compared the 600 Ohm to the 32 Ohm DT880 thru an M-DAC DAC/headphone amp.

Very hard to tell the difference after level matching (the 600 Ohm version takes a lot more voltage to drive it) the only difference I could hear was the 600 Ohm version had a very, very slightly smoother treble, but you would have to seriously A/B them to catch the difference. Mind you, the M-DAC is one kick butt piece of gear! The M-DAC drives the DT880s right!

If you have an amp that can't output enough voltage to drive the 600 Ohm version, like a little FiiO E17 or E07 or an iPad or just about any other battery powered head amp, then get the 32 Ohm version and sleep soundly at night!

 

I would buy based on price and what amp you are driving them with.

For example, my 600 Ohm 'phones work great with my La Figaro 336C tube amp which has a rather high output impedance and can output a fair amount of voltage but not a lot of current.


Edited by Chris J - 5/31/13 at 3:06pm
post #3452 of 10435

I'm getting the Pro (price reasons) with an E11 amp.

post #3453 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

Read my post #3445 above.

I've compared the 600 Ohm to the 32 Ohm DT880 thru an M-DAC DAC/headphone amp.

Very hard to tell the difference after level matching (the 600 Ohm version takes a lot more voltage to drive it) the only difference I could hear was the 600 Ohm version had a very, very slightly smoother treble, but you would have to seriously A/B them to catch the difference. Mind you, the M-DAC is one kick butt piece of gear! The M-DAC drives the DT880s right!

If you have an amp that can't output enough voltage to drive the 600 Ohm version, like a little FiiO E17 or E07 or an iPad or just about any other battery powered head amp, then get the 32 Ohm version and sleep soundly at night!

 

I would buy based on price and what amp you are driving them with.

For example, my 600 Ohm 'phones work great with my La Figaro 336C tube amp which has a rather high output impedance and can output a fair amount of voltage but not a lot of current.

 

Agree with everything said here, but I had the 250 Ohm with the 600 Ohm, and yes, the 600 had the slightest bit smoother (reduced / less strident) highs than the 250.

And you're also right that it's been said many many many times in the past, you need to A/B them, volume matched (as I have) to even notice the difference. So get the one that matches your system... the one that has the best synergy with the type of amp you are looking at getting.

post #3454 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by luiscasgt View Post

 Only one word can describe them "WOW"

 

After +100 hours warm up, I concur that.

post #3455 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post

 

They're not worse in any way. Frankly, it's time this silly myth about the 600 ohm version being the "Premium" 880 and all other versions being inferior in some way was put to bed.
 

 

This is more or less what Tyll at IF found:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/comparison-beyerdynamic-dt-880-32-ohm-dt-880-250-ohm-and-dt-880-600-ohm-headphones

 

The key is the damping factor. From a source with reasonably low output impedance (basically any amp discussed even mildly favorably on Head-Fi would qualify), the difference between the 250 ohm and 600 ohm versions should be minuscule at most.

 

Anecdotal accounts will of course vary from person to person, and I won't deny they might hear a difference. However, unit-to-unit variation and expectation priming might account for some of that. Beyer's recent (Tesla-based) models aren't exactly a paragon of consistency (much to the consternation of the Effin' Ringin' crew), so it wouldn't surprise me if there were noticeable differences between samples of the same model even in the Premium DTxx0 designs. If so (especially if measureably so), I think this would make it difficult to determine how much of the audible difference between randomly selected 250 and 600 ohm samples could be attributed to the impedance alone.

post #3456 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyris View Post

 

This is more or less what Tyll at IF found:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/comparison-beyerdynamic-dt-880-32-ohm-dt-880-250-ohm-and-dt-880-600-ohm-headphones

 

The key is the damping factor. From a source with reasonably low output impedance (basically any amp discussed even mildly favorably on Head-Fi would qualify), the difference between the 250 ohm and 600 ohm versions should be minuscule at most.

 

Anecdotal accounts will of course vary from person to person, and I won't deny they might hear a difference. However, unit-to-unit variation and expectation priming might account for some of that. Beyer's recent (Tesla-based) models aren't exactly a paragon of consistency (much to the consternation of the Effin' Ringin' crew), so it wouldn't surprise me if there were noticeable differences between samples of the same model even in the Premium DTxx0 designs. If so (especially if measureably so), I think this would make it difficult to determine how much of the audible difference between randomly selected 250 and 600 ohm samples could be attributed to the impedance alone.

 

Exactly. I pretty much disregard people's reports that, for example, the 600 ohm version has very slightly smoother treble than the 250 ohm because driver variance from one headphone to the next can result in that much of a difference or often more and yet people automatically assume its the impedance difference they're hearing. If its that hard to tell the difference between different ohm versions then they are the same, for all intents and purposes, IMO. Amps with high output impedances such as OTL tube amps are another story though, obviously, and the 600 ohm would likely be the best choice for such an amp but it has nothing to do with the drivers in the 600 ohm version being superior. For all we can tell there is no difference between the 32/250/600 ohm drivers aside from the impedance and standard driver variance.

post #3457 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post

 

Exactly. I pretty much disregard people's reports that, for example, the 600 ohm version has very slightly smoother treble than the 250 ohm because driver variance from one headphone to the next can result in that much of a difference or often more and yet people automatically assume its the impedance difference they're hearing. If its that hard to tell the difference between different ohm versions then they are the same, for all intents and purposes, IMO. Amps with high output impedances such as OTL tube amps are another story though, obviously, and the 600 ohm would likely be the best choice for such an amp but it has nothing to do with the drivers in the 600 ohm version being superior. For all we can tell there is no difference between the 32/250/600 ohm drivers aside from the impedance and standard driver variance.

 

Yep, driver variance is probably one if the reasons why I could hear a slight difference between a 32 Ohm and a 600 Ohm sample.

 

But doesn't Beyer state that the 600 Ohm version has the lightest voice coil? And the 32 Ohm have the heaviest voice coil?

post #3458 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

Yep, driver variance is probably one if the reasons why I could hear a slight difference between a 32 Ohm and a 600 Ohm sample.

 

But doesn't Beyer state that the 600 Ohm version has the lightest voice coil? And the 32 Ohm have the heaviest voice coil?

 

I think I've heard something like that. I would be interested to know as well. I've heard that all three models, the 700, 880, & 990 all use the same drivers and different materials are used to tame the highs and/or lows (770 & 880). I've heard that the impedance differences are from a resistor that's added to the driver but I'm no electrical engineer and I'm not very sure on any of this. It would be great to get clarification.

 

I know my 880 Pro-250 and 770 Premium-600 do sound very similar although they have quite different signatures. My theory is that the least consistent drivers are used for the 770, it being the cheapest model, since I heaven't heard a lot of reports of *wildly* variating signatures among 880s and 990s but its quite common with 770s. I had two seemingly identical 770-Premium-600's at the same time and one was quite bassy and not sibilant at all while the other was bass-shy and sibilant. I kept the bassy one and I love it actually. It does have more bass distortion than probably most 770s do thanks to the bass emphasis and the mids get a bit drowned out but I still quite like it. The 880 is a clearer rendition of the driver with less bass and no distortion at all (thanks to the semi-open back I think because the bass distortion on the 770 seems to be caused by not quite having enough air flow through the cups), fuller mids, clearer detail, and a slightly more airy sound.

 

I love them both and while the 770 doesn't get a whole lot of use these days I could never sell it. I still use them for movies, for example, which they are super great with. Ya gotta love the Beyers. I actually like the HD600 slightly more, soundwise, than the DT880 and yet the 880 seems to end up with slightly more head time. I don't know. Something about Beyers, you just want to put them on.

dt880smile.png beerchug.gif


Edited by devhen - 6/2/13 at 10:36am
post #3459 of 10435

There is audible and measurable (confirmed from multiple sources which discounts just driver variances) difference between 250 and 600 Ohm, how big it is and whether 600 Ohm is worth the trouble of investing into heftier amplification, is purely subjective and personal.

The Beyer itself ranking 600Ohm drivers as "Especially for hi-fi enthusiasts and studio applications", for a reason I'd guess, why hassle with multiple impedance drivers if they all sound the same.

 

I owned both and found 600Ohm much more acceptable as far as brightness goes, but I could just get better matched drivers in Manufaktur model.


Edited by Andrew_WOT - 6/2/13 at 10:54am
post #3460 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_WOT View Post

The Beyer itself ranking 600Ohm drivers as "Especially for hi-fi enthusiasts and studio applications", for a reason I'd guess, why hassle with multiple impedance drivers if they all sound the same.

 

The point isn't to make drivers that sound different from each other, its to make multiple versions of the same drivers for use with different types of amps. I read "Especially for hi-fi enthusiasts and studio applications" as referring to the type of high-power or high output impedance devices that hi-fi enthusiasts and studio pros use (receivers, tube amps, studio grade amps and mixing desks etc). I don't think they mean "we made these ones sound better."


Edited by devhen - 6/2/13 at 11:02am
post #3461 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post

 

I think I've heard something like that. I would be interested to know as well. I've heard that all three models, the 700, 880, & 990 all use the same drivers and different materials are used to tame the highs and/or lows (770 & 880). I've heard that the impedance differences are from a resistor that's added to the driver but I'm no electrical engineer and I'm not very sure on any of this. It would be great to get clarification.

 

I know my 880 Pro-250 and 770 Premium-600 do sound very similar although they have quite different signatures. My theory is that the least consistent drivers are used for the 770, it being the cheapest model, since I heaven't heard a lot of reports of *wildly* variating signatures among 880s and 990s but its quite common with 770s. I had two seemingly identical 770-Premium-600's at the same time and one was quite bassy and not sibilant at all while the other was bass-shy and sibilant. I kept the bassy one and I love it actually. It does have more bass distortion than probably most 770s do thanks to the bass emphasis and the mids get a bit drowned out but I still quite like it. The 880 is a clearer rendition of the driver with less bass and no distortion at all (thanks to the semi-open back I think because the bass distortion on the 770 seems to be caused by not quite having enough air flow through the cups), fuller mids, clearer detail, and a slightly more airy sound.

 

I love them both and while the 770 doesn't get a whole lot of use these days I could never sell it. I still use them for movies, for example, which they are super great with. Ya gotta love the Beyers. I actually like the HD600 slightly more, soundwise, than the DT880 and yet the 880 seems to end up with slightly more head time. I don't know. Something about Beyers, you just want to put them on.

dt880smile.png beerchug.gif

 

Speaking as an Electrical Engineer I can tell you that the 600 Ohm version is NOT the 32 Ohm version with a resistor added.

The 32 Ohm version will have less windings on the voice coil with thicker wire.

The 600 Ohm version will have more windings with thinner wire.

 

Anyway, I had heard that the 770, 880 and 990 all use the same driver, the difference in sound is partly due to the 770 being sealed, the 880 being semi sealed and the 990 being an open design. I wouldn't be surprised if other construction details in the cup were also used to tailor the sound.................

 

I've heard a pair of HD600 driven from a kick butt, full zoot balanced amp, they sounded amazing!

post #3462 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post

 

Exactly. I pretty much disregard people's reports that, for example, the 600 ohm version has very slightly smoother treble than the 250 ohm because driver variance from one headphone to the next can result in that much of a difference or often more and yet people automatically assume its the impedance difference they're hearing. If its that hard to tell the difference between different ohm versions then they are the same, for all intents and purposes, IMO. Amps with high output impedances such as OTL tube amps are another story though, obviously, and the 600 ohm would likely be the best choice for such an amp but it has nothing to do with the drivers in the 600 ohm version being superior. For all we can tell there is no difference between the 32/250/600 ohm drivers aside from the impedance and standard driver variance.

 

Understood, and for the most part agree.

While anecdotal, and perhaps also to some extent the result of 'mass think' and external influence; the most common observation regarding the difference between the 250 and 600 is the slightly decreased (smoother, less strident, whatever...) highs.

Attribute it to whatever you wish, driver variance, drugs, dogs howling at night, it is a common if not close to universal observation (I won't use the use consensus, but now that I've subliminally implanted it...). They even measure that way, so there may actually be a reason for it beyond the unexplainable or slight manufacturing differences.

 

Either way, I really don't care. Having compared the two for extensive periods, I kept the 600 Ohm because of the results I got, regardless of why they occurred.

 

And you are correct, and it also has been said many times... it's synergy. Get the Ohm-age model for the amp you have or want to get. I'd guess that 98% of the folks listening will never hear a difference between them, and a higher percentage might not even care.

 

But amps and synergy do matter. I have listened to my 880/600's through many amps / DAC-amps, receivers, etc., and I can assure you that this makes much more difference than the Ohms of the model one choses.

post #3463 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

 

Speaking as an Electrical Engineer I can tell you that the 600 Ohm version is NOT the 32 Ohm version with a resistor added.

The 32 Ohm version will have less windings on the voice coil with thicker wire.

The 600 Ohm version will have more windings with thinner wire.

 

Anyway, I had heard that the 770, 880 and 990 all use the same driver, the difference in sound is partly due to the 770 being sealed, the 880 being semi sealed and the 990 being an open design. I wouldn't be surprised if other construction details in the cup were also used to tailor the sound.................

 

I've heard a pair of HD600 driven from a kick butt, full zoot balanced amp, they sounded amazing!

 

Well speak of the devil, you're an electrical engineer eh? That's awesome! I'm a software engineer but don't really know much on the hardware side other than how to build computers and servers and such haha. I should probably get into EE more though. I had a class or two on it in college but the software side came much more naturally to me. Anyway... cheers!

beerchug.gif

A couple weeks ago I saw someone post in one of these (many) Beyer threads that the 770, 880, & 990 use different webbing and acoustic felt on the front & back of the drivers to either tame the bass or the highs and that that was the cause of the differing sound signatures. I'm not sure if I buy that completely (meaning, there's probably more to it as well) but it was interesting and IIRC he included pics. If I can find it I'll post a link. It would be great to get some more clarification on this stuff. I wonder if Beyer's sales rep would answer this sort of question...

 

Edit: ^ I meant 'bass' not 'mids'


Edited by devhen - 6/2/13 at 11:21am
post #3464 of 10435

I've read all sorts of DT880 lore. I've come across the thing about the screen on the back of the driver several times, with one owner expressing dismay that he had "transformed" his DT880 into a DT990 by removing the screen, ended up not liking the change, and then found he couldn't get the screen back on properly. I've also read differing accounts on whether the three DTxx0 models share drivers or not, or whether any given two share them (usually it's that the DT880 and DT990 that are said to have the same drivers), and also that the pad material makes a huge difference in sound (I can believe this--ever tried wearing a DT880 without its pads? Treble and bass mostly disappear). Supposedly the DT770 has firmer, less porous pads (I've never actually come across one, but I'm sure this is accurate) and there are differing accounts on whether or not these pads sound good on the other premium DT models. I'm quite sure that the difference in coil winding between impedance versions is correct, since Beyer themselves confirm this.

 

And then of course there are the 2003 vs 2005 comparisons. I seem to recall that they started installing the thicker, dome-shaped foam inserts with the 2005 version and that some users who had heard both versions reported a difference. I've read a wide range of opinion on that, from some who felt the newer version was a mild improvement (slightly smoother highs and a bit more coherence and body throughout) to a few who absolutely hated the new version, saying it had bloated midbass and overly muted, veiled treble. My own experience tells me that my particular specimen might have the faintest upper bass lift (1-2dB at the absolute most). I notice it after I haven't used the DT880 for a while, and it disappears almost as quickly as I notice it. I think it's just that the harmonics of the bass are stronger than the fundamentals, whereas for all my other headphones the fundamentals are at least as strong as their harmonics. It's not a big enough difference for me to be persistently aware of it, though.

post #3465 of 10435
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post

 

Well speak of the devil, you're an electrical engineer eh? That's awesome! I'm a software engineer but don't really know much on the hardware side other than how to build computers and servers and such haha. I should probably get into EE more though. I had a class or two on it in college but the software side came much more naturally to me. Anyway... cheers!

beerchug.gif

A couple weeks ago I saw someone post in one of these (many) Beyer threads that the 770, 880, & 990 use different webbing and acoustic felt on the front & back of the drivers to either tame the bass or the highs and that that was the cause of the differing sound signatures. I'm not sure if I buy that completely (meaning, there's probably more to it as well) but it was interesting and IIRC he included pics. If I can find it I'll post a link. It would be great to get some more clarification on this stuff. I wonder if Beyer's sales rep would answer this sort of question...

 

Edit: ^ I meant 'bass' not 'mids'

 

Hey, what the......you think I'm the devil?very_evil_smiley.gif

No just an EE, LOL!

I will happily confess that I am a complete idiot when it comes to software and programming! redface.gif

 

The different webbing and acoustic felt theory is interesting, and kinda makes sense, too!

When I bought my DT880s I'm sure the salesman told me Beyer used the same drivers in the 770, 880 & 990. He wasn't one of those BS artist salesmen, he actually seemed to know what he was talking about.

 

When I was much younger I sold stereo equipment for a few months. We sold a line of speakers made by a company called JPW, they had a cheaper, a mid priced and more expensive speaker in their line. The sales rep told us they all used the same drivers, the only reason they sounded better and cost more as you went up the line was that the enclosure and crossover kept getting better and better.

 

Cheers, man!

beerchug.gif

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