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Are (High-end) Custom IEMs Overrated? - Page 16  

post #226 of 467
6/26/11 at 9:45pm

maybe that is my problem, I like hard pillows

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post #227 of 467
6/26/11 at 11:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0ck3n View Post

The ES5 uses soft and sticky vinyl tips, with a tight fit the earpieces just don't move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post

Wow, that's an interesting point! Any explanation why, since most of what I've read about customs would make me expect the opposite? The prospect of increased footfall (as compared to universals) has been worrying me ever since I started to think about going custom.


Are you sure that it's movement of the earpieces that causes footfall? Just asking, because my W4 fit absolutely secure and tight sealing with Shure foamies (olives), but I get a pretty high amount of footfall. IME it's the lesser sealing IEMs that give me also less footfall.

post #228 of 467
6/26/11 at 11:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielofDenmark View Post


I do know that I brought it up, but I didn't want to start a debate about economies, as I doubt none of us know an adequate amount on the subject, to actually have a proper debate.

Now I would like to know where you get those two countries from? I'm pretty sure, a couple of years ago anyway, that Copenhagen was the best paid capitol in the world.

What's the minimum wage in the US, if I may ask? I'm paid 20,11$ an hour - which is minimum wage here for a person above the age of 18.

 

average_joe: I have sent you a PM.

 


 

I think you missed the link in my last post. Here it is again.

post #229 of 467
6/27/11 at 1:15am
I'm not sure at all tbh, but if allowed to speculate I'd guess it's caused by vibrations going through your body and resonating off the object inside your ears. If that object isn't caused to vibrate much, since it's so tighty secured, you won't hear the effect to the same extent.

I haven't really tried alot of IEMs but my RE-ZEROs are useless when walking, and the ES5 barely has any audible footfall at all, even with the music turned off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post


Are you sure that it's movement of the earpieces that causes footfall? Just asking, because my W4 fit absolutely secure and tight sealing with Shure foamies (olives), but I get a pretty high amount of footfall. IME it's the lesser sealing IEMs that give me also less footfall.

post #230 of 467
6/27/11 at 1:52am

Im not sure if the "foot fall" issue is really a phenenom called the "occlusion effect" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occlusion_effect 

 

or caused by cable movement, because the way the cable is resting over the ear (on custom IEMs and some of the non-custom IEMs) cable movement is rarely an issue

 

the ear (pinna) acts like a vibration damper.  The vibrations are absorbed before they reach the IEM and so they are not transfered to the ear canal


Edited by FullCircle - 6/27/11 at 1:56am
post #231 of 467
6/27/11 at 2:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

I think you missed the link in my last post. Here it is again.

Indeed I did - the curses of staying up late. But you are forgetting the fact that those numbers are comparing 6 million to 300 million people. I know there are in fact a lot of people who are poorer in the US, but there are also quite a bit of richer people there, so I can't really use those numbers for anything at all.

 

And now I'm leaving this "debate", because arguing with someone who isn't open-minded is a waste of my time.

 

Anaxilus; The price of a Big Mac is around 10$ I think, but that's only the burger itself. At this time, petrol is around 8.5$ a gallon +/-. 

 

Edited by DanielofDenmark - 6/27/11 at 2:10am
post #232 of 467
6/27/11 at 2:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielofDenmark View Post



Indeed I did - the curses of staying up late. But you are forgetting the fact that those numbers are comparing 6 million to 300 million people. I know there are in fact a lot of people who are poorer in the US, but there are also quite a bit of richer people there, so I can't really use those numbers for anything at all.

 

And now I'm leaving this "debate", because arguing with someone who isn't open-minded is a waste of my time.

 

Anaxilus; The price of a Big Mac is around 10$ I think, but that's only the burger itself. At this time, petrol is around 8.5$ a gallon +/-. 

 

So, now it's a matter of being open minded, is it? Oh dear.

 

There never was a debate because right from the outset your assumptions were wrong. Facts are facts. I'm certainly no expert in economy or European economy specifically, but I certainly know more on the subject judging by some of the contents in your previous posts.

 

To think that Denmark somehow represents the average European country is, to put it very mildly, naive. To suggest that $20 an hour (minimum wage) is the average in Europe is...er...wrong.

 

There is no debate.

 

post #233 of 467
6/27/11 at 4:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0ck3n View Post

I'm not sure at all tbh, but if allowed to speculate I'd guess it's caused by vibrations going through your body and resonating off the object inside your ears. If that object isn't caused to vibrate much, since it's so tighty secured, you won't hear the effect to the same extent.

I haven't really tried alot of IEMs but my RE-ZEROs are useless when walking, and the ES5 barely has any audible footfall at all, even with the music turned off.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullCircle View Post

Im not sure if the "foot fall" issue is really a phenenom called the "occlusion effect" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occlusion_effect 

 

or caused by cable movement, because the way the cable is resting over the ear (on custom IEMs and some of the non-custom IEMs) cable movement is rarely an issue

 

the ear (pinna) acts like a vibration damper.  The vibrations are absorbed before they reach the IEM and so they are not transfered to the ear canal


It is indeed part of the occlusion effect and not caused by cable movement (microphonics). Maybe the dampening characteristics of the tips play a more important role than seal, i.e. vinyl would be better than acrylic. If so, that would be one more thing to consider when going custom.

post #234 of 467
6/27/11 at 5:37am
I'm a vocalist and the occlusion effect isn't as bad with the ES5 as with the universal monitors I've used. All things included, for me, the ES5 is worth the asking price, simply because it's solved so many problems for me. I probably wouldn't feel the same had I gone for a full acryllic monitor instead.
post #235 of 467
6/28/11 at 2:07pm

For the record,  I think the JH5 is the best bang for buck IEM (universal or custom) in it's price range, period.  Unamped it will give you 85-90% of what JH16 is....no kidding.  I owned them both at the same time.  They sound eerily similar.  Only real difference are two things.  The JH16 is generally more refined sounding, more smooth.... and the JH16 soundstage is MUCH wider...almost un-naturally wide.  Amount of space, decay, speed, treble, midrange and bass and bass impact/slam is the same.  JH5 is a very respectable poor man's JH16 and at 1/3rd the cost, a steal!


Edited by Spyro - 6/28/11 at 3:37pm
post #236 of 467
6/28/11 at 2:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyro View Post

For the record,  I think the JH5 is the best bang for buck IEM (universal or custom) in it's price range, period.  Unamped it will give you 85-90% of what JH16 is....no kidding.  I owned them both at the same time.  They sound eerily similar.  Only real difference are two things.  The JH16 is generally more refined sounding, nore smooth.... and the JH16 soundstage is MUCH wider...almost un-naturally wide.  Amount of space, decay, speed, treble, midrange and bass and bass impact/slam is the same.  JH5 is a very respectable poor man's JH16 and at 1/3rd the cost, a steal!



 

Spyro -- Be very careful about making such claims or you may end up being ridiculed and told - at least by one poster - that you're utterly wrong, that your JH5 is just like a 1960s Honda compared to the all-mighty & revolutionary JH16, which is more like a brand new 2011 Ferrari.  ;)
 
Of course it's rather curious that in 2011 Westone still sell the UM3X for $400 (regarded by someone as a 2000 Honda Civic) and the ES3X (regarded by the same person as a 2000 Honda Accord) for $850. Yet, the spectacular ES5 is only $100 more than the ES3X and according to Variphone, Westone's European distributor, not a 'big' upgrade to the ES3X and even dares recommend the ES3X to some customers instead of the revolutionary ES5.
 
Yes, one is allowed to officially proclaim the JH16 is better than the AKG K702, but I guess I'm not allowed to say I found my ES3X better sounding than the HD650 because according to the same person who "feels sorry for music_4321", I claimed the ES3X sounds similar to any universal, which, of course, I never did.
post #237 of 467
6/28/11 at 3:12pm

For the record, many have felt the ES5 an appreciable upgrade over their ES3X.  A few come to mind on the ES5 thread.  Which individual working at Variphone thinks they are the same or that the ES5 is worse?  Perhaps you/they mean 'preferred'?  I notice the ES3X is 56ohms so if you have a high output Z from your source the ES5 would not shine by comparison.  Even the W4 is 31 ohms.  You compare your W4 to the ES3X favorably but from my listening the ES5 is a step above the W4.  There are other universals I might prefer over the W4 for my tastes tbh.  So the whole W4=95% ES3X=95% ES5 is far off to my ears.

 

From my experience I take the words of those employed by vendors w/ a grain of salt unless I can get confirmation from another source.  They aren't immune to any of the variables that affect perceptions like the rest of us. 

 

     

post #238 of 467
6/28/11 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

For the record, many have felt the ES5 an appreciable upgrade over their ES3X.  A few come to mind on the ES5 thread.  Which individual working at Variphone thinks they are the same or that the ES5 is worse?  Perhaps you/they mean 'preferred'?  I notice the ES3X is 56ohms so if you have a high output Z from your source the ES5 would not shine by comparison.  Even the W4 is 31 ohms.  You compare your W4 to the ES3X favorably but from my listening the ES5 is a step above the W4.  There are other universals I might prefer over the W4 for my tastes tbh.  So the whole W4=95% ES3X=95% ES5 is far off to my ears.

 

From my experience I take the words of those employed by vendors w/ a grain of salt unless I can get confirmation from another source.  They aren't immune to any of the variables that affect perceptions like the rest of us. 

 

     

 


I'm not suggesting the ES3X is the same or better than the ES5. I've said enough times on this thread that it is likely better sounding, but I feel it won't be that much better.
 
When I spoke to one of the technicians at Variphone, he said the ES5 wasn't necesarily an upgrade as much as might be thought and that he personally preferred the ES3X, which performed extrememly well and was likely more reliable (unlikely, but still possible future repairs needed for the ES5) due to the less complex yet very proficient design.
 
Usually - not always - a vendor will try to sell you the more expensive item, specially when said item isn't that much more expensive. I found the person I dealt with was refreshingly honest overall, and he said to me: If you already have the ES3X, there really is no need to 'upgrade'.
 
"So the whole W4=95% ES3X=95% ES5 is far off to my ears"
 
Well, it is to your ears. There are people who prefer the SM3 over the W4 and I found the SM3 a pretty bad sounding IEM and found the UM3X, TF10, CK100, IE8 & specially the W4 so much better, not just marginally better.

 


Edited by music_4321 - 6/28/11 at 3:40pm
post #239 of 467
6/28/11 at 3:43pm

UM3X is 56 ohms and will blow your head off.  It's about sensitivity, not ohms.

 

music_4321:  I understand.  I am being honest and if anything most usually take the opposite approach ("I paid $1,200 for JH16 so it mops the floor with everything").  I am sure it scales better amped but I am just saying for those that don't want to get an amp, JH5 is right there.  I feel the upgrade without amping was a bit wasteful.  Same with JH13.

post #240 of 467
6/28/11 at 3:48pm

From my experience, I have seen many "new released models" with the same drivers as the older models, but they have a different PCB in place...  in other words a new cross over design.

 

Technically, this would yield a different SQ and would probably decrease issues of "over stock" when it comes to BA drivers. Another possible advantage would be high volume discounts. If you order a lot of the same driver, you would get a better discount than if you had to split the order up with many different drivers.

 

I'm not knocking the industry, I'm just laying it out on the table.

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