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Are (High-end) Custom IEMs Overrated? - Page 15  

post #211 of 467

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post #212 of 467
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielofDenmark View Post

I'm not going to quote your last post, music_4321, as it will be painful to look at so many quotations, but I will give my answers.

 

I do realize that the MSRP for the W3's is ridiculous, and I didn't even pay close to half that for mine, but that is besides the point. It was just an illustration of how expensive things are over here, and pointing out that "custom" prices aren't that crazy to some people. 

The only reason I brought up the european countries economies is because everything is more expensive over here - generally speaking - but our salaries tend to be equally higher. Notice the word tend, and let's leave the economic aspects out of this.

To answer your question, I am not norwegian, I am danish.

 

 

 

You brought up the issue of European economies in the first place making wrong assumptions. Then you brought them up again, and once again you made wrong assumptions. Then you go on to say "let's leave the economic aspects out of this". I think this needs to be clarified, therefore:

 

Only the standard of living in Norway and Luxembourg is higher than in the US - that can hardly be translated as "our salaries tend to be equally higher" when talking about Europe. Those two countries do not represent the average standard of living of European countries, not by a very long shot. The Population of Luxembourg is only about half a million, tiny compared to the population of the whole of Europe. The standard of living in Norway is only roughly 10% higher than in the US. So, the vast majority of Western Europe actually has a lower standard of living than in the US and it's even much lower in Eastern Europe.
 

 


Edited by music_4321 - 6/26/11 at 3:38pm
post #213 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

"I think that some of the ones I have, but not all, are significantly better than any universal I have heard"
 
Yes, you've said that before, and I gave the example of your view that your EM3Pro was 35% better than your SM3. Your view is a lot more common on HF than mine, it seems, and I've already explained before why I think that is.
 
That 35% was something I was asked to quantify and I begrudgingly did.  And the EM3 Pro is not one of the three.  It might be similar to your situation as I wasn't super impressed with the EM3 Pro or the EP-10 Plus, but they are better than the SM3, although at a significant price increase.  The LS8, SA-43 and 5-way are significantly better than any universal I have heard.
 
"I know a Miracle owner that has heard just about every top tier universal and may be loaning me the EX1000 for some time and his take is the same as mine."
 
Although you speak of one nameless person, I could also say "I know someone who...who thinks just like music_4321" Instead, you can read the Headphonia review of the EX1000, where the reviewer (who presumably has heard other IEMs in his life) compares the JH16 to the Sonys, and the latter does very well.
 
The fact the Headphonia reviewer says what he says doesn't mean he's got to be100% right, just like not everything you and "the Mircale owner you know" say has to be right. But, the point is that there are REAL people out there, some of whom are quite experienced, who seem to share my views, I'm sorry to say, ie that some of these customs -- high-end or otherwise -- do NOT destroy all top-tier universals, or are significantly better. Some of these people have said that even when they did think their high-end customs were better than the universals they've heard, the differences were small. You and others insist the difference is much more significant and just do not want to accept there may really be such a thing as the "law of diminishing returns". There are other aspects, which are quite factual (not opinions), that many buyers simply ignore due, mostly, to the hype that often surrounds customs threads.
 
I am not saying you and the Headphonia reviewer's opinions aren't correct, I am saying that, at least yours, as you admit, isn't in the majority.  I have the LCD-2 which is highly regarded and I would choose any of my 3 custom IEMs over the LCD-2 any day as they technically outperform the LCD-2 to my ears with my gear.  
 
The problem as I see it is you are bashing things you refuse to try (except for a custom that uses the same internals as a universal), and are as vocal can be about it, repeating the same thing like a broken record.  I have agreed with some of the points you have made yet I haven't seen any reciprocation.  Based on past experience, you will again argue with me and continue your crusade. 
 
"Or is the JH16, in your opinion (even though you have never heard one) overrated?"
 
How many more times do you need to say that I haven't heard the JH16? You yourself haven't, so please stop - and even if you had, so what? Does that invalidate everything I say? I've always spoken of my $850 ES3X. Others have spoken of their ES5, JH13, JH16 & UE18. So, let me ask you this: If I bought all those other customs and I came to the same conclusions, would that make any difference to you? I don't think it would. I think you'd come with all manner of 'explanations' to 'prove' what my ears were telling me was just wrong.
 
If you bought at least one (minus the UE18), I would have much more respect for your position, however you are right.  My biggest issue is the way you are going about your crusade.
 
"And ACS charges more than the others?  My by currency conversion, the ACS triple is $1036 today (649 GBP)...I thought the pricing was with VAT"
 
You "thought the pricing was with VAT"? Please, if you're not sure, say so clearly as that would possibly mean adding an extra 20% to an already expensive product. But still, even at $1036 for ACS's triple BA isn't exactly the $799 JHA charge for their triple BA JH10 or JH10X3, or the $850 Westone charge for the ES3X, or other (much) cheaper models by other manufacturers.
 
So all 3 BA driver customs sound the same, go with the cheapest?  And silicone or acrylic are the same also, right?  Can you tell from the site if VAT is in the cost?  From what I have seen from UE resellers is they usually have VAT in the price and will reduce the price but increase shipping when sending to the US.
 
" I know the Earsonics pricing has VAT built in and the EM3 Pro is about the same price as a JH16 with artwork."
 
The price is 744.15 EUR + 148.83 EUR (VAT) = 893.00 EUR --> $1,267.00 USD for a triple driver when JHA charges $799 for both triple BA driver models. The JH16 has 8 drivers per shell and the EM3Pro has 3, not exactly a fair comparison, I think, even if ultimately both may not sound all that different. And please don't say you were only comparing both flagships from both companies. In that case I might as well compare Skullcandy's flagship IEM with Westone's or Sony's flagship universal IEMs.
 
So you are saying the number of drivers matter and make something superior?
 
"But it sure seems like you are making overgeneralizations."
 
That's what it seems to you. I also think you make some statements which at times are quite off the mark, I'm sorry to say.  As you would.  Would you say that one data point is statistically significant?
 
"there are other international forums that discuss several different custom IEM manufacturers.  There is a forum in German that says how much better Compact Monitors are than JHA stuff.  Here is an example of a non-English forum and yet another of one in English.  I understand it is not wise to jump in blind, hence people are on forums."
 
I know about some of those forums, but I think many will agree one cannot yet get enough information on MANY of the products and manufacturers you list on your thread and sometimes the translations one gets from some of these foreign forums isn't enough. 
 

True to an extent.  People have to make a buying decision on something, this thread, my thread, foreign forums, talking with the manufacturer, recommendations, whatever.  But there is more info out there than you originally indicated with your post.


Knowing there is no way to win debating with you because it appears that your opinion is fact, but I will respond to a bit.

 

 

post #214 of 467

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielofDenmark View Post

Also, thanks to Average_joe. The danish forum link you posted was actually a thread made by myself, because I heard about Spiral Ear from your thread I believe. 

 

 

Now, I'd like to end this post with saying that I haven't really got an answer to the question, other than I find it hard to imagine, as I have the Westone 3's which are fantastic IEM's, and I've heard the Spiral Ear 3-Way Reference which by all means outshines it, and it's not even a flagship. 



Did you hear the demo 3-way, or the real thing?  And good to read your thoughts on the 3-way.

post #215 of 467

The mere fact that music_4321 is making his argument after only having cross-compared his Westone ES3X with other universals makes this thread a shallow argument in my opinion.

 

If the ES3X sounds similar to any universal, I feel sorry for music_4321 for what he is missing out on, because my JH16 does indeed easily sound better than my Sennheiser IE8, EarSonics SM3, and my AKG K702 (which are full-size headphones, a hard comparison, but I still can tell that my JH16 sounds better than my AKG K702).

 

Couple that with the fact that the Westone ES5 is Westone's new flagship, and music_4321 has not heard the ES5, goes to show that his argument is useless.

 

To make a rough analogy, it's like he has driven a 2000 Honda Civic (UM3X) and saying it is similar sounding to his 2000 Honda Accord (ES3X), and then blatantly making the conclusion that a 2011 Honda Accord (Westone ES5/JH16/any new custom IEM) must also be similar to his 2000 Honda Accord (ES3X) in terms of sound quality, and thus also similar to his 2000 Honda Civic (UM3X), forgetting that there is an 11 year gap between the two cars during which so many changes may have occurred (and did occur, actually).

 

Technology advances and manufacturers learn many new techniques for making something like a speaker or IEM sound better. By sticking with your ES3X and using that as your baseline to compare to every other custom IEM is quite useless in my opinion.

 

And yes, if you did get all of the customs in the world and still stood by your opinion, I would still stick with mine. The JH16 simply sounds miles better than any other universal IEM that I've heard. I can't say that every custom IEM will then sound better than a universal (such as an entry model), but I can say that a high-end custom IEM will most likely sound better than most, if not all, universals on the market.

 

Anyway, time for more interesting rebuttals from music_4321 where he answers every nitty gritty part of my argument in another feeble attempt to deconstruct an argument contrary to his opinion popcorn.gif.


Edited by SolidVictory - 6/26/11 at 3:50pm
post #216 of 467
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by average_joe View Post


Knowing there is no way to win debating with you because it appears that your opinion is fact, but I will respond to a bit.

 


Nothing more for me to say to you.

 

post #217 of 467
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidVictory View Post

The mere fact that music_4321 is making his argument after only having cross-compared his Westone ES3X with other universals makes this thread a shallow argument in my opinion.

 

If the ES3X sounds similar to any universal, I feel sorry for music_4321 for what he is missing out on, because my JH16 does indeed easily sound better than my Sennheiser IE8, EarSonics SM3, and my AKG K702 (which are full-size headphones, a hard comparison, but I still can tell that my JH16 sounds better than my AKG K702).

 

Couple that with the fact that the Westone ES5 is Westone's new flagship, and music_4321 has not heard the ES5, goes to show that his argument is useless.

 

To make a rough analogy, it's like he has driven a 2000 Honda Civic (UM3X) and saying it is similar sounding to his 2000 Honda Accord (ES3X), and then blatantly making the conclusion that a 2011 Honda Accord (Westone ES5/JH16/any new custom IEM) must also be similar to his 2000 Honda Accord (ES3X) in terms of sound quality, and thus also similar to his 2000 Honda Civic (UM3X), forgetting that there is an 11 year gap between the two cars during which so many changes may have occurred (and did occur, actually).

 

Technology advances and manufacturers learn many new techniques for making something like a speaker or IEM sound better. By sticking with your ES3X and using that as your baseline to compare to every other custom IEM is quite useless in my opinion.

 

And yes, if you did get all of the customs in the world and still stood by your opinion, I would still stick with mine. The JH16 simply sounds miles better than any other universal IEM that I've heard. I can't say that every custom IEM will then sound better than a universal (such as an entry model), but I can say that a high-end custom IEM will most likely sound better than most, if not all, universals on the market.

 

Anyway, time for more interesting rebuttals from music_4321 where he answers every nitty gritty part of my argument in another feeble attempt to deconstruct an argument contrary to his opinion popcorn.gif.

 

It shows you haven't even bothered to read this thread so, all I can say is: No comment. 
 

 

post #218 of 467
I enjoy Music(4321) like any "Average Joe", but in the end the (solid)Victory is MINE!!!!!!!!!
Drink an ice tea, that'll do!
post #219 of 467


I do know that I brought it up, but I didn't want to start a debate about economies, as I doubt none of us know an adequate amount on the subject, to actually have a proper debate.

Now I would like to know where you get those two countries from? I'm pretty sure, a couple of years ago anyway, that Copenhagen was the best paid capitol in the world.

What's the minimum wage in the US, if I may ask? I'm paid 20,11$ an hour - which is minimum wage here for a person above the age of 18.

 

average_joe: I have sent you a PM.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post



 

You brought up the issue of European economies in the first place making wrong assumptions. Then you brought them up again, and once again you made wrong assumptions. Then you go on to say "let's leave the economic aspects out of this". I think this needs to be clarified, therefore:

 

Only the standard of living in Norway and Luxembourg is higher than in the US - that can hardly be translated as "our salaries tend to be equally higher" when talking about Europe. Those two countries do not represent the average standard of living of European countries, not by a very long shot. The Population of Luxembourg is only about half a million, tiny compared to the population of the whole of Europe. The standard of living in Norway is only roughly 10% higher than in the US. So, the vast majority of Western Europe actually has a lower standard of living than in the US and it's even much lower in Eastern Europe.
 

 



 

post #220 of 467


OT response:

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielofDenmark View Post

What's the minimum wage in the US, if I may ask?


Depends on the state.  $7.25 is the federal mandate.  California is $8 because it's been run into the ground and uses imaginary currency by handing out IOUs.  San Francisco is $10 because they think they are 'special' tongue.gif and need more income to cover all the extra taxes and fees.  Some states are still around $5 depending on certain conditions.

 

What's the cost of 4L of petrol and a Big Mac in Copenhagen?  From my travels the cost of consumables or 'soft' goods are ridiculously high in Europe.  Even in Eastern Europe which was shockingly high.  I actually find it rather suspicious in some cases.  Something like $20-$30 just for an average dinner meal at an average restaurant for one person.  No drinks, no apps, no dessert.  That was more than 7 years ago when the the Dollar actually mattered.

 

 

 


Edited by Anaxilus - 6/26/11 at 7:26pm
post #221 of 467

I can answer this very quickly, 4 liter(gallon) of petrol is around $9 in Denmark. But do take into consideration that most cars in Denmark have a gas mileage that is more than twice as efficient than the average American car, also travel distances is on a much smaller scale.

 

Dinning out at a restaurant is also very expensive in Denmark compared to the US, but it's not expected to add gratitude to a meal which usually add around 20% to a given meal in the US.

At an average restaurant you pay around $20-30 for just the main course and if you want to enjoy it with a beer it will be additional $8-10, a soft drink will cost you around $5-6 with no

refills. But again as danielofdenmark said out minimum wages are at least $20, and then there's taxes...

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #222 of 467

As a guy that build Custom and Non-custom IEMs, I have to say I have yet to build a Non-Custom that sounds as good as a custom..

 

But I have yet to build a Custom that fits as comfortably and gives me as much as "freedom" as a non-custom product.

 

Comfort:

 

I can not sleep with my customs in, but I can sleep with my non-customs in my ears.

 

Thinking about it logically, you have a hard mass stuck in a soft openening trying to act like a "coupler" and it just is not the "ideal" way to couple the two mediums together. Now with a non-custom, you have two soft mediums creating a coupling point, and because they are both soft the seal is generally better, and comfortable.

 

The non-custom offers freedom, because they are easily removed and are smaller, and because they weigh less, the BA's inside are less prone to "shock" damage if I drop them.

 

Sound Quality:

 

Well, as far as my builds go; customs beat out non-customs and this is due to the amount of drivers I can use. I have customs that range from 3-10 drivers.  Once I start getting to 4 and above drivers...   I can safely say, they surpass any Non-custom IEM I have ever heard.

 

Folks, I used to feel that the amount of drivers = better sound quality is all hype, but after my builds I have to say I have not found that to be the case.

(That said, I am still a big fan of the ER4P)

Dr. John Moulton

Here at Noble, we craft some of the finest universal and custom in-ear monitors available today. 

post #223 of 467

You can't sleep w/ your customs?  That was like the first thing I did once I got my ES5's.  Then again I love a nice cool piece of concrete slab to rest on.

post #224 of 467


     No, I can't sleep with my customs, when I lay on my side, the customs are shoved in to my ear canal...  not comfortable. But with the non-custom builds, I can lay on my side, and I don't even feel like there is an increase in force to my ear canal...  and I just slumber off....  

 

I have dozens of custom IEMs, and I really find myself leaning to non-customs due to their comfort.

 

I am an audiologist, and I once had a older wiser audiologist say to me, "No one will wear a hearing aid if it is not comfortable, even if they hear better...."   and this logic may apply to some extent.   It is not that my Customs are not comfortable, it is just that they are not comfortable at all times....  Now the non-customs (for me) they are comforatble at all times, in essentially all activities. (I wish I could shower with them on)
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

You can't sleep w/ your customs?  That was like the first thing I did once I got my ES5's.  Then again I love a nice cool piece of concrete slab to rest on.



 

Dr. John Moulton

Here at Noble, we craft some of the finest universal and custom in-ear monitors available today. 

post #225 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by FullCircle View Post

     No, I can't sleep with my customs, when I lay on my side, the customs are shoved in to my ear canal...  not comfortable. But with the non-custom builds, I can lay on my side, and I don't even feel like there is an increase in force to my ear canal...  and I just slumber off....  

 

I have dozens of custom IEMs, and I really find myself leaning to non-customs due to their comfort.

 

I am an audiologist, and I once had a older wiser audiologist say to me, "No one will wear a hearing aid if it is not comfortable, even if they hear better...."   and this logic may apply to some extent.   It is not that my Customs are not comfortable, it is just that they are not comfortable at all times....  Now the non-customs (for me) they are comforatble at all times, in essentially all activities. (I wish I could shower with them on)


Interesting.  I can press both of my earpieces into my ears and feel no discomfort.  A slight bit of extra pressure but nothing uncomfortable at all.  Maybe you need new pillows.  tongue_smile.gif

 

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