Great points but if you're buying IEMs or any HiFi as an investment, you've got the wrong idea. It's very individual if it's worthwhile or not but the one thing that's certain is that you shouldn't buy a custom unless you're very sure about them sonically and not for prestige or experiments. It should be a long haul deal which also makes the possible hassle of getting them right more palatable.
Fair enough music_4321. The resale value of lower tier customs does make it harder to sell than higher customs since I think when people see the price of a JH13, etc. going for $500 or so they rather spend that amount than a cheaper custom. However all customs are a risk since I have yet to hear a demo before buying the real thing so the only thing to go by are reviews by people who have opinions that I trust and luckily for me there a few around here.
I may one day get one of the higher priced customs instead of remolding and getting more drivers like I did with my Livewire Trips. I think that's even more risky since it does change the sound signature but that's another story. One of these days I may end up getting a ES5 or the UE Reference Monitors as those are the two that interest me the most.
Lastly I do wonder about demos vs the actual custom. I've heard both sides where it is close to the real thing and also where it is nothing compared to the real thing. I guess it depends on how good a fit you get but I really have doubts that it is nothing compared to the real thing. You should be able to get a flavor of what the real thing will sound like when you have a demo or at least that would make sense.
I don't think entry-level customs are as overrated as high-end customs, but I still think a good universal is a better option (specially for non-US residents), here's why:
1) You still have to add price of ear impressions, shipping costs, face the prospect of re-fits (therefore adding to the overall cost) and possibly paying import duty/taxes for non-US residents.
2) Resale value is too low if you're not happy with the sound sig or simply decide to upgrade or 'try a new flavour'. The resale value is even worse than high-end customs (percentage-wise) as probably someone wanting an entry-level custom would prefer a brand new set over a second-hand pair.
Or you'd have to sell your pair for peanuts (less than half price) and only if the buyer chooses some cheap re-shelling service offered by companies which are not consistent in the quality of their work. Unique Melody, the only company I'd personally consider for reshelling, is located in China, so shipping costs, very long shipping times, the prospect of re-fits (even much longer waiting times) would be serious aspects to be taken into account and, ultimately, for me, a big turn-off.
I can't see how you think a high end custom is overrated but a low end custom is not. If you can't really hear a difference between a high end custom and universal you surely won't between a lower end custom and universal IMO. That statement seems to say that the high end customs really aren't much, if at all better than lower cost customs.
And how about the custom manufacturers worldwide? Most people can find custom IEMs manufactured close to where they live. The manufacturer section in my custom IEM thread has them broken down by region/country.
Just curious as to how you know the "cheap" reshelling companies are not consistent? Many companies other than those reviewed on here reshell custom IEMs and universal IEMs.
For ear impressions 2+ weeks is bad news, so Europeans are advised to spend even more on express shipping so their ear impressions get there fast (that, obviously, apart from the actual audiologist's fees). JHA charge $75 on top of the $1,100 for shipping the finished product to Europe, hoping (or praying) they declare item as a gift with a low value to avoid import duty/tax. Any re-fits (and perhaps a second set of ear impressions) and you have to add even more shipping costs. So, in the end it can be well over $1000 USD. At least with universals one gets a pretty good idea how much one will pay. I think midoo1990 spent a fortune to finally get a proper fitting (and sounding?) JH13 set. Midoo's case is certainly not the norm, and perhaps he could afford the whole thing, but more than a few can easily spend close to $1,300 - $1,500
Where did you get the info on the impressions only being good for 2 weeks? I have conversed with more than 5 people that said the current material will not change over time (edited). The old material that is mixed together with water (and still may be in existence, as you can buy it, but I have not seen an audiologist use it) had longevity issues, but not the new materials.
I am curious to hear your take...mg6pro (high end custom, right?) overrated or not?
Where did you get the info on the impressions only being good for 2 weeks? I have conversed with more than 5 people that disagree that the current material will not change over time. The old material that is mixed together with water (and still may be in existence, as you can buy it, but I have not seen an audiologist use it) had longevity issues, but not the new materials.
Just to add my 2 cents. My ES5 impressions were at Westone for almost two months while we worked out some details and artwork. I asked their head audiologist about this concern and he said they use a silicone compound now that doesn't shrink. Sure enough my pieces fit perfect despite my fears. So it really depends on what material each vendor or audiologist is using.
I think you understood what I meant...I corrected it in my post. 5+ and your experience...the materials typically used these days don't shrink. That is the gun and also the self-impression kits.
I think you understood what I meant...I corrected it in my post. 5+ and your experience...the materials typically used these days don't shrink. That is the gun and also the self-impression kits.
Yeah sorry, I was agreeing. Forgot to make that clear.
Well, no one can tell for sure unless they have heard both side by side. But to put things into perspective, the guy whom I got the JH13 demo from is one of the most respected dealers where I live. Needless to say he's heard both and he told me that bass would get better (with more impact) on the custom, whereas the upper frequencies would stay virtually the same. Even after I reported my mixed feelings about the JH13-D, he never once tried to feed me the story that my the final version would be much better. Instead he suggested that I should try the IERM demo.
Those who'd actually care to read my impressions in the JH13 thread with an open mind, would notice that most of my critique is due to personal preference. I haven't been all too fond of the SM3's in-your-face mids and neither do I like JH13-D's, even though both have fantastic quality. I love my soundstage and would take a less proficient but more spacious IEM over a technically better but more confined one. I attach great importance to natural timbre, because I listen mostly to acoustic instruments (classical, folk, jazz). I'm quite sure that aspect would be at the end of my priority list, if I were a death metal lover. And so on... Pretty much the only thing not related to personal preference was my impression that they have a bass hump - and I'm glad to see that this has been confirmed by JHA themselves, so I wasn't completely in the wrong.
Like I said, of course I have no way of knowing whether my issues with the JH13-D would be sorted out on the full custom version, but it seems very unlikely to me. In my personal view the JH13-D performed slightly below the FI-BA-SS and W4 and that's where they ended up in my sig.
I can't see how you think a high end custom is overrated but a low end custom is not. If you can't really hear a difference between a high end custom and universal you surely won't between a lower end custom and universal IMO. That statement seems to say that the high end customs really aren't much, if at all better than lower cost customs.
And how about the custom manufacturers worldwide? Most people can find custom IEMs manufactured close to where they live. The manufacturer section in my custom IEM thread has them broken down by region/country.
Just curious as to how you know the "cheap" reshelling companies are not consistent? Many companies other than those reviewed on here reshell custom IEMs and universal IEMs.
Where did you get the info on the impressions only being good for 2 weeks? I have conversed with more than 5 people that said the current material will not change over time (edited). The old material that is mixed together with water (and still may be in existence, as you can buy it, but I have not seen an audiologist use it) had longevity issues, but not the new materials.
I just wanted to point out that, according to "average_joe"'s thread, there are quite a lot of custom manufacturers in those countries/regions. In Scandinavia, there's Starkey, and not too far away in Poland we have Spiral Ear. There are some in Germany as well. Think of Europe as a large country with states sort of like America. The only difference for us will be the shipping costs. Distance wise, some of us will live closer to a custom manufacturer than some Americans, so yeah, I'd say we can live pretty close to custom manufacturers.
When you mention the price increase of 50% for Westone products in Belgium, you need to remember that VAT is a large part of that, and the company selling the ES5 also needs to make a few bucks. Granted, it is a major price increase, but there are reasons for it. There are however other places in Europe to purchase Westone customs, but that's besides the point.
^ I knew about those manufacturers you mention (except in Scandinavia), and that's why I said in the next paragraph in my post: "And even if that was the case...".
Whether customs in Europe are (much) more expensive due to taxes or other reasons is irrelevant. The fact is that Europeans often have to pay a lot more for customs, which makes these customs even more overrated, in my view, than for US buyers.
And like I said, you may not want customs from those companies 'nearby', and there's often not enough reliable feedback for a potential buyer to feel confident to pull the trigger on such expensive items from these companies. Earsonics (France) and ACS (UK) are not distributors for any other companies (like Variphone for Westone) and their products are still VERY expensive - same goes for that Polish company and I believe the same is true for that other German manufacturer.
I wouldn't exactly call it entirely irrelevant, as everything over here is more expensive, thus making the ratio somewhat similar. To put things into perspective, the MSRP for the Westone 3 is 646$ in my country, which is quite a bit more than in the US I believe. However, the salaries over here are also higher, making things comparable to one and other.
I do see you're point when you say "you may not want customs from those companies 'nearby'," but that is also the case for americans. Granted, they do have a bigger selection nearby than we do, but if your mind is set on one specific custom, the amount of manufacturers in your neighborhood doesn't matter, if it's not what you're looking for.
I do agree that customs are an expensive investment, and even more so when we look at the european prices compared to comparable american products, but it's up to the ear of the beholder whether or not the price is worth it for him/herself.
Granted, the 2 best IEM's I've heard are a universal version of the Spiral Ear Reference 3, and the Westone 3. The price is close, but not the same range, but the Spiral was quite a bit better even with what I would call forced seal, as I had to put my fingers on the monitors as the plugs put on didn't fit my ears one bit.
I wouldn't exactly call it entirely irrelevant, as everything over here is more expensive, thus making the ratio somewhat similar. To put things into perspective, the MSRP for the Westone 3 is 646$ in my country, which is quite a bit more than in the US I believe. However, the salaries over here are also higher, making things comparable to one and other.
I do see you're point when you say "you may not want customs from those companies 'nearby'," but that is also the case for americans. Granted, they do have a bigger selection nearby than we do, but if your mind is set on one specific custom, the amount of manufacturers in your neighborhood doesn't matter, if it's not what you're looking for.
I do agree that customs are an expensive investment, and even more so when we look at the european prices compared to comparable american products, but it's up to the ear of the beholder whether or not the price is worth it for him/herself.
Granted, the 2 best IEM's I've heard are a universal version of the Spiral Ear Reference 3, and the Westone 3. The price is close, but not the same range, but the Spiral was quite a bit better even with what I would call forced seal, as I had to put my fingers on the monitors as the plugs put on didn't fit my ears one bit.
I only say it's irrelevant because at the end of the day whether the increased price is due to taxes and/ or manufacturers inflating their prices, the consumer ends up paying A LOT for these products.
Yes, the W3 may be $646 in your country, but the vast majority of people will not pay that price (even in Europe) and if you shop around you can easily get them for half that price or a little more, or even cheaper if you get a second-hand W3 in very good condition in the For Sale forum here. Customs, on the other hand, cannot be purchased for lower prices as most of the time you can only get them directly from the manufacturer or a distributor, who will not offer you a lower price and in those few cases where they do, the 'discount' is minimal. Then you have to 'prey' you don't need a refit or more, an extra set of ear impressions, which would add to the overall price and then, of course, longer waiting times and possible added frustration.
"...it's up to the ear of the beholder whether or not the price is worth it for him/herself."
The issue of people preferring to spend a lot on these products has been discussed several times, so I won't be repeating what I and others have said on the subject. I suggest you go back and read all the thread as it often happens that people respond to one post and the issues have already been discussed at length.
EDIT: "However, the salaries over here are also higher [than in the USA], making things comparable to one and other."
That may be true in your country (Norway?) but even in the UK and many other European countries, where salaries are NOT even equal to those in the US, prices across Europe for these products are pretty much the same (except where VAT rates are different). It's a fact that generally speaking the standard of living in the US is higher than in many European countries, ie US consumers have access to more (consumer) goods doing exactly the same kind of job.
So the original thread title was correct then?
It appears you have not looked at the manufacturers list in my thread. There is a manufacturer in Russia and one in Brazil. I also think there is another that services South America. Of course different custom manufacturers will have different sound signatures and different QC etc. I agree with you that it is very important to make sure you are making the right choice for you when buying a custom IEM because they lose so much value if you decide to sell. I know all about sending packages international, I have sent 2 ear impressions with $30 shipping each to ensure arrival, but not because of time to get the ear impressions.
I am surprised Westone said what they did, but I guess it is better to be safe than sorry. There is a lot more that goes into custom IEMs, but in stark contrast to your opinion about the value of high end custom IEMs, I think that some of the ones I have, but not all, are significantly better than any universal I have heard. Whatever the reason, the 5-way, LS8, and SA-43 are just better without doubt. I know a Miracle owner that has heard just about every top tier universal and may be loaning me the EX1000 for some time and his take is the same as mine.
If you are international and want a JH16, you are stuck. But if you want it and are overseas, does that all of a sudden make that product overrated? Or is the JH16, in your opinion (even though you have never heard one) overrated? And ACS charges more than the others? My by currency conversion, the ACS triple is $1036 today (649 GBP). And from talking with all but one silicone manufacturer (that I know of), silicone is harder to work with than acrylic. I thought the pricing was with VAT. I know the Earsonics pricing has VAT built in and the EM3 Pro is about the same price as a JH16 with artwork.
As far as reshells, sure, not everything is perfect. Neither is any original custom or universal. And, some people will complain about something no matter what. The eQ-7 I had was faulty and funny thing is the two previous owners just thought they had a bad fit. I had a bad IE8 that was replaced with an IE8 that had a channel imbalance, the CK10 I sold didn't sound right to the buyer (after being stuck in customs for 2 weeks even though expedited shipping was paid for), so that was warranty replaced. Of course, with custom IEMs you have the chance you will need multiple refits while chances are the replacement for a universal will be good. But it sure seems like you are making overgeneralizations. Just because one company says something that does not make it an industry wide fact.
Your thread somewhat reminds me of something I stumbled upon on hydrogen audio where someone said don't get a JH16, get a Livewire and just use a parametric EQ. I think you will find plenty of allies there!
^ I knew about those manufacturers you mention (except in Scandinavia), and that's why I said in the next paragraph in my post: "And even if that was the case...".
Whether customs in Europe are (much) more expensive due to taxes or other reasons is irrelevant. The fact is that Europeans often have to pay a lot more for customs, which makes these customs even more overrated, in my view, than for US buyers.
And like I said, you may not want customs from those companies 'nearby', and there's often not enough reliable feedback for a potential buyer to feel confident to pull the trigger on such expensive items from these companies. Earsonics (France) and ACS (UK) are not distributors for any other companies (like Variphone for Westone) and their products are still VERY expensive - same goes for that Polish company and I believe the same is true for that other German manufacturer.
Actually, there are some head-fi favorites for custom IEM companies, but there are other international forums that discuss several different custom IEM manufacturers. There is a forum in German that says how much better Compact Monitors are than JHA stuff. Here is an example of a non-English forum and yet another of one in English. I understand it is not wise to jump in blind, hence people are on forums.
I'm not going to quote your last post, music_4321, as it will be painful to look at so many quotations, but I will give my answers.
I do realize that the MSRP for the W3's is ridiculous, and I didn't even pay close to half that for mine, but that is besides the point. It was just an illustration of how expensive things are over here, and pointing out that "custom" prices aren't that crazy to some people.
The only reason I brought up the european countries economies is because everything is more expensive over here - generally speaking - but our salaries tend to be equally higher. Notice the word tend, and let's leave the economic aspects out of this.
To answer your question, I am not norwegian, I am danish.
Also, thanks to Average_joe. The danish forum link you posted was actually a thread made by myself, because I heard about Spiral Ear from your thread I believe.
Now, I'd like to end this post with saying that I haven't really got an answer to the question, other than I find it hard to imagine, as I have the Westone 3's which are fantastic IEM's, and I've heard the Spiral Ear 3-Way Reference which by all means outshines it, and it's not even a flagship.
So the original thread title was correct then?
It appears you have not looked at the manufacturers list in my thread. There is a manufacturer in Russia and one in Brazil. I also think there is another that services South America. Of course different custom manufacturers will have different sound signatures and different QC etc. I agree with you that it is very important to make sure you are making the right choice for you when buying a custom IEM because they lose so much value if you decide to sell. I know all about sending packages international, I have sent 2 ear impressions with $30 shipping each to ensure arrival, but not because of time to get the ear impressions.
I am surprised Westone said what they did, but I guess it is better to be safe than sorry. There is a lot more that goes into custom IEMs, but in stark contrast to your opinion about the value of high end custom IEMs, I think that some of the ones I have, but not all, are significantly better than any universal I have heard. Whatever the reason, the 5-way, LS8, and SA-43 are just better without doubt. I know a Miracle owner that has heard just about every top tier universal and may be loaning me the EX1000 for some time and his take is the same as mine.
If you are international and want a JH16, you are stuck. But if you want it and are overseas, does that all of a sudden make that product overrated? Or is the JH16, in your opinion (even though you have never heard one) overrated? And ACS charges more than the others? My by currency conversion, the ACS triple is $1036 today (649 GBP). And from talking with all but one silicone manufacturer (that I know of), silicone is harder to work with than acrylic. I thought the pricing was with VAT. I know the Earsonics pricing has VAT built in and the EM3 Pro is about the same price as a JH16 with artwork.
As far as reshells, sure, not everything is perfect. Neither is any original custom or universal. And, some people will complain about something no matter what. The eQ-7 I had was faulty and funny thing is the two previous owners just thought they had a bad fit. I had a bad IE8 that was replaced with an IE8 that had a channel imbalance, the CK10 I sold didn't sound right to the buyer (after being stuck in customs for 2 weeks even though expedited shipping was paid for), so that was warranty replaced. Of course, with custom IEMs you have the chance you will need multiple refits while chances are the replacement for a universal will be good. But it sure seems like you are making overgeneralizations. Just because one company says something that does not make it an industry wide fact.
Your thread somewhat reminds me of something I stumbled upon on hydrogen audio where someone said don't get a JH16, get a Livewire and just use a parametric EQ. I think you will find plenty of allies there!
Actually, there are some head-fi favorites for custom IEM companies, but there are other international forums that discuss several different custom IEM manufacturers. There is a forum in German that says how much better Compact Monitors are than JHA stuff. Here is an example of a non-English forum and yet another of one in English. I understand it is not wise to jump in blind, hence people are on forums.
