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post #571 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaibhavp View Post
 

 

I am sorry about your wallet if this discussion leads you to next amp purchase.

 

with my limited experience, I believe these 3 things cannot be achieved in same setup (1 hp and 1 amp):

 

1. Dymanics and impact

 

2. timber accuracy

 

3. pleasant to listen to

 

two can be achieved but not all 3. If such system exists, it would be very expensive I believe.

My wallet is with the banks ! Just bought the Stax SR 009. Any donations are welcome.

post #572 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by kothganesh View Post
 

My wallet is with the banks ! Just bought the Stax SR 009. Any donations are welcome.

 

hahaha ...

post #573 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by kothganesh View Post
 

My wallet is with the banks ! Just bought the Stax SR 009. Any donations are welcome.

Have you tried hooking you headphones to speaker amps (not at the line level but through speaker taps)? There may be something there. I am experimenting it with it now. 

post #574 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by kothganesh View Post
 

I must try it out with the amps from Senn. I also seem to remember that one of our members (I think Simran) was planning to buy a BCL for his 800. If so, I would like to hear from him.

 

I'm still waiting for my BCL, it's been sitting with my buddy in london, got it for 330GBP secondhand. Should be well past the burn in, a new one a bit much though I must say I was very tempted by the pro version with balanced ins. The amp should be here in 10 days, fingers crossed it works and is in good condition. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaibhavp

 

1. Dymanics and impact

 

2. timber accuracy

 

3. pleasant to listen to

Good way to put it Vaibhav, can't have it all :(

post #575 of 581

Actually, Vaibhav, I also happen to think that some "audiophiles" will take 1&2 as priorities over 3 (in your list). Over time, they then try to mod the HP to achieve item 3 and in the process compromise a bit on 1 & 2. My own 2 cents.

post #576 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by kothganesh View Post
 

Actually, Vaibhav, I also happen to think that some "audiophiles" will take 1&2 as priorities over 3 (in your list). Over time, they then try to mod the HP to achieve item 3 and in the process compromise a bit on 1 & 2. My own 2 cents.

 

thats why they are audiophiles :wink_face:

 

I personally like to call myself music lover. hence a preference for point 3.

 

unless I am trying to impress someone with elitist bull***t.

post #577 of 581

Interesting, since I'm a guitar player I tend to give more importance to 1 & 2, in the hope that the musicians besides knowing what they're doing are using good quality equipment, same goes for including the recording engineer and studio/space,  by that I mean in a good situation item #3 will be achieved. Compression is not a feature of that sound in the room live.

 

I've been in bands, marching bands as well :) Played clarinet and drums forever so I have a fair idea of how instruments sounds firsthand in various situations. I find the HD800 damn good with sound stage and detail, as far as the bass is concerned I think it's fantastic and tight but I could do with some mechanical reinforcement to complete the image. Music live can be loud and very disturbing, the only time I really don't like what I'm hearing on the HD800 is a lousy recording, by that I mean narrow soundstage, compressed to be just loud, and poor taste in tone by the instrumentalists itself, you can hear it on poorly recorded rock from the 80s. That music was mixed to be played loud on 12" speakers with tweeters and midrange drivers. 

The thing about recordings are that they're miked, that 'amp/cab/sound in the room' sound is very hard to reproduce, there's a reason why old jazz recordings sound great specially with the drums since they used overheads a lot more than spot mics back in the day. Sound engineers these days mostly use a combination of mics per instrument, one or two spot mics placed at a focused sweet spot, often mounted on the instrument or with a stand in front of say an amplified analog instrument like a guitars tube amp, in addition to one or more ambient microphones picking up the room sounds and reverberations. They then blend all this into a stereo sound stage, so we're mostly listening to choices made by the recording engineer as far as miking/preamps, mix and post processing. Sondstage has nothing to do with tonality/timbre here.

 

An electric guitar amplifier is very hard to capture, that trouser flapping 4x12 cab fed by a raging marshall 100 watter. My ears are very tuned into that sort of thing, years of playing with great industry standard equipment tell me I'm hearing more than I've ever heard with the 800s. Details are very important to me in that sense. 

 

I don't know how many of you know this but recording an electric guitar is never done direct, it must pass through a speaker transducer to get that air and body we're used to, now play that recorded signal back on the same speaker, provided this time it's a flat response amplifier you get double the speaker transducer effect including the cabinet resonance, that's a natural compression. Playing back that signal on a 12" studio monitor vs a 10" hifi is again different to what a headphone can muster up. Moving large volumes of air is defiantly going to add warmth and be closer to that amp in the room sound.

Headphones definitely operate at a different level of efficiency, can you have all three in that list, I think it depends more on the music and recording, less on the consumer equipment used  by percentage of influence. How different is running your source through a colouring tube amp vs running a compressor/eq/spacializer. 

I would thing being used to studio equipment you're better of getting 1 & 2 down and achieving 3 to taste with post processing per recording.

post #578 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twangsta View Post
 

Interesting, since I'm a guitar player I tend to give more importance to 1 & 2, in the hope that the musicians besides knowing what they're doing are using good quality equipment, same goes for including the recording engineer and studio/space,  by that I mean in a good situation item #3 will be achieved. Compression is not a feature of that sound in the room live.

 

I've been in bands, marching bands as well :) Played clarinet and drums forever so I have a fair idea of how instruments sounds firsthand in various situations. I find the HD800 damn good with sound stage and detail, as far as the bass is concerned I think it's fantastic and tight but I could do with some mechanical reinforcement to complete the image. Music live can be loud and very disturbing, the only time I really don't like what I'm hearing on the HD800 is a lousy recording, by that I mean narrow soundstage, compressed to be just loud, and poor taste in tone by the instrumentalists itself, you can hear it on poorly recorded rock from the 80s. That music was mixed to be played loud on 12" speakers with tweeters and midrange drivers. 

The thing about recordings are that they're miked, that 'amp/cab/sound in the room' sound is very hard to reproduce, there's a reason why old jazz recordings sound great specially with the drums since they used overheads a lot more than spot mics back in the day. Sound engineers these days mostly use a combination of mics per instrument, one or two spot mics placed at a focused sweet spot, often mounted on the instrument or with a stand in front of say an amplified analog instrument like a guitars tube amp, in addition to one or more ambient microphones picking up the room sounds and reverberations. They then blend all this into a stereo sound stage, so we're mostly listening to choices made by the recording engineer as far as miking/preamps, mix and post processing. Sondstage has nothing to do with tonality/timbre here.

 

An electric guitar amplifier is very hard to capture, that trouser flapping 4x12 cab fed by a raging marshall 100 watter. My ears are very tuned into that sort of thing, years of playing with great industry standard equipment tell me I'm hearing more than I've ever heard with the 800s. Details are very important to me in that sense. 

 

I don't know how many of you know this but recording an electric guitar is never done direct, it must pass through a speaker transducer to get that air and body we're used to, now play that recorded signal back on the same speaker, provided this time it's a flat response amplifier you get double the speaker transducer effect including the cabinet resonance, that's a natural compression. Playing back that signal on a 12" studio monitor vs a 10" hifi is again different to what a headphone can muster up. Moving large volumes of air is defiantly going to add warmth and be closer to that amp in the room sound.

Headphones definitely operate at a different level of efficiency, can you have all three in that list, I think it depends more on the music and recording, less on the consumer equipment used  by percentage of influence. How different is running your source through a colouring tube amp vs running a compressor/eq/spacializer. 

I would thing being used to studio equipment you're better of getting 1 & 2 down and achieving 3 to taste with post processing per recording.

 

informative.

 

which amp do you use with hd800?

 

although I have resolved not to get into flagship territory. It will get out of hands real fast.:blink:

post #579 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaibhavp View Post
 

 

informative.

 

which amp do you use with hd800?

 

although I have resolved not to get into flagship territory. It will get out of hands real fast.:blink:

About this audiophile stuff, most of it is sake oil, especially the flagship stuff. No doubt they're build to last which is a rarity in these times, which is to say I'm a fan of overbuilt equipment but within a reasonable limit.

 

Here's the deal about HiFi, it's shocking that audiophile stuff costs twice as much with halt the functionality of pro audio equipment. It makes no sense buying silver cables with silver transformers, power cables, etc. They're just prying on your inadiquicies, plenty's been written on this subject so I halt the rant right here. I'm sure I'm just preaching to the choir ;) I jest ... 

 

I'm using a Univeral Audio Apollo audio interface, belongs to the category of pro audio devices that are used in the best studios across the world. It manages 80 milliwatts at 300 on it's headphone out, that's plenty for the HD800, I can understand the need for more to help raise the headroom, like a blackface fender twin 100. That fender amp is primarily a country amp that's super loud and stays clean, known for it's signature compression, but hardly ever used even at half volume specially in studios etc, everything has it's sweet spot.

 

The apollo and other likes RME, etc can be considered mastering DACs, ultimately a great studio will write to a pro tape machine to get that finished analog sound even to this day. Really good studios will track (record) to a studer tape machine, do the mix etc and then finally master on a ampex tape machine, from that tape it's re-digitized to get the final product. These days you get 'null test' plugins from ONLY three companies, these plugins reproduce the analog equipment exactly, thus the 'null test'. I use these these UAD2 plugins some times to sweeten or widen, or even fix some annoying frequency with a surgeons knife, these are the very tools used in mastering and tracking. Up-sample and muck about since it's  better to make changes at higher resolutions and then down sample for final delivery. In that sense even a well recoded average bit rate mp3 can sound better than a badly mixed hirez track, but then you knew that already.

Now the thing is on a forum like this people are talking about single channel DACs in the thousands of dollars, that's just crazy! These devices no doubt have embedded general eq/compression going to achieve their minor difference in tonality, they're charging gullible folks for a designer eq curve and some subtle mastering tools, like the tape plugins, you run any track through one of those hi quality plugins and your home, mind you there's a lot of snake oil in the plugin space too. It's a perversion of what the market will support.

As for cables, take a good guitar, plug it into a good tube amp with a 4 foot cable and then A/B that with a 20foot cable, there's a difference in capacitance, out of 10 guitar players in the room, 4 will like the shorter cable for its livelier bright signature, the rest will opt for the more rolled off highend, when it comes to signal cables you could use that as an eq, but a good amp just needs a twist of a knob to nullify any advantage your getting out using different cables. As far as a guitar power amp to speaker wire, expensive brands just use regular ol' copper that you find used in indoor electrical wiring,  but there are people selling multicore solid core and a ton of other bull ****, sure buy a decent cable, but for it's reliability under stress. 
 

The point is beware of flagship BS, pro audio is way better more flexible than the audiophile stuff, and cheaper! The last thing I'm going to do is start tube rolling on a headphone amp, while I'm no stranger to activity it with instrument amplifiers I'll leave that variable out of my personal listening coloration's. What would be the point of getting a super transparent transducer in a great package and running it coloured. Use a pro eq or plugin for better millage, you can always opt out. Lately I've just stopped listening to bad recordings, not depriving myself of anything, just a nice way to move on and expand my repertoire. 

 

Spend wisely :D

 

 

here's something from a while back, a ham handed quick record of one of my fav guitar covers.


Edited by Twangsta - Yesterday at 11:07 am
post #580 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twangsta View Post

Interesting, since I'm a guitar player I tend to give more importance to 1 & 2, in the hope that the musicians besides knowing what they're doing are using good quality equipment, same goes for including the recording engineer and studio/space,  by that I mean in a good situation item #3 will be achieved. Compression is not a feature of that sound in the room live.

I've been in bands, marching bands as well smily_headphones1.gif Played clarinet and drums forever so I have a fair idea of how instruments sounds firsthand in various situations. I find the HD800 damn good with sound stage and detail, as far as the bass is concerned I think it's fantastic and tight but I could do with some mechanical reinforcement to complete the image. Music live can be loud and very disturbing, the only time I really don't like what I'm hearing on the HD800 is a lousy recording, by that I mean narrow soundstage, compressed to be just loud, and poor taste in tone by the instrumentalists itself, you can hear it on poorly recorded rock from the 80s. That music was mixed to be played loud on 12" speakers with tweeters and midrange drivers. 


The thing about recordings are that they're miked, that 'amp/cab/sound in the room' sound is very hard to reproduce, there's a reason why old jazz recordings sound great specially with the drums since they used overheads a lot more than spot mics back in the day. Sound engineers these days mostly use a combination of mics per instrument, one or two spot mics placed at a focused sweet spot, often mounted on the instrument or with a stand in front of say an amplified analog instrument like a guitars tube amp, in addition to one or more ambient microphones picking up the room sounds and reverberations. They then blend all this into a stereo sound stage, so we're mostly listening to choices made by the recording engineer as far as miking/preamps, mix and post processing. Sondstage has nothing to do with tonality/timbre here.

An electric guitar amplifier is very hard to capture, that trouser flapping 4x12 cab fed by a raging marshall 100 watter. My ears are very tuned into that sort of thing, years of playing with great industry standard equipment tell me I'm hearing more than I've ever heard with the 800s. Details are very important to me in that sense. 

I don't know how many of you know this but recording an electric guitar is never done direct, it must pass through a speaker transducer to get that air and body we're used to, now play that recorded signal back on the same speaker, provided this time it's a flat response amplifier you get double the speaker transducer effect including the cabinet resonance, that's a natural compression. Playing back that signal on a 12" studio monitor vs a 10" hifi is again different to what a headphone can muster up. Moving large volumes of air is defiantly going to add warmth and be closer to that amp in the room sound.


Headphones definitely operate at a different level of efficiency, can you have all three in that list, I think it depends more on the music and recording, less on the consumer equipment used  by percentage of influence. How different is running your source through a colouring tube amp vs running a compressor/eq/spacializer. 


I would thing being used to studio equipment you're better of getting 1 & 2 down and achieving 3 to taste with post processing per recording.

Very informative indeed. Keep the know-how flowing.
Cheers!
post #581 of 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twangsta View Post
 

About this audiophile stuff, most of it is sake oil, especially the flagship stuff. No doubt they're build to last which is a rarity in these times, which is to say I'm a fan of overbuilt equipment but within a reasonable limit.

 

Here's the deal about HiFi, it's shocking that audiophile stuff costs twice as much with halt the functionality of pro audio equipment. It makes no sense buying silver cables with silver transformers, power cables, etc. They're just prying on your inadiquicies, plenty's been written on this subject so I halt the rant right here. I'm sure I'm just preaching to the choir ;) I jest ... 

 

I'm using a Univeral Audio Apollo audio interface, belongs to the category of pro audio devices that are used in the best studios across the world. It manages 80 milliwatts at 300 on it's headphone out, that's plenty for the HD800, I can understand the need for more to help raise the headroom, like a blackface fender twin 100. That fender amp is primarily a country amp that's super loud and stays clean, known for it's signature compression, but hardly ever used even at half volume specially in studios etc, everything has it's sweet spot.

 

The apollo and other likes RME, etc can be considered mastering DACs, ultimately a great studio will write to a pro tape machine to get that finished analog sound even to this day. Really good studios will track (record) to a studer tape machine, do the mix etc and then finally master on a ampex tape machine, from that tape it's re-digitized to get the final product. These days you get 'null test' plugins from ONLY three companies, these plugins reproduce the analog equipment exactly, thus the 'null test'. I use these these UAD2 plugins some times to sweeten or widen, or even fix some annoying frequency with a surgeons knife, these are the very tools used in mastering and tracking. Up-sample and muck about since it's  better to make changes at higher resolutions and then down sample for final delivery. In that sense even a well recoded average bit rate mp3 can sound better than a badly mixed hirez track, but then you knew that already.

Now the thing is on a forum like this people are talking about single channel DACs in the thousands of dollars, that's just crazy! These devices no doubt have embedded general eq/compression going to achieve their minor difference in tonality, they're charging gullible folks for a designer eq curve and some subtle mastering tools, like the tape plugins, you run any track through one of those hi quality plugins and your home, mind you there's a lot of snake oil in the plugin space too. It's a perversion of what the market will support.

As for cables, take a good guitar, plug it into a good tube amp with a 4 foot cable and then A/B that with a 20foot cable, there's a difference in capacitance, out of 10 guitar players in the room, 4 will like the shorter cable for its livelier bright signature, the rest will opt for the more rolled off highend, when it comes to signal cables you could use that as an eq, but a good amp just needs a twist of a knob to nullify any advantage your getting out using different cables. As far as a guitar power amp to speaker wire, expensive brands just use regular ol' copper that you find used in indoor electrical wiring,  but there are people selling multicore solid core and a ton of other bull ****, sure buy a decent cable, but for it's reliability under stress. 
 

The point is beware of flagship BS, pro audio is way better more flexible than the audiophile stuff, and cheaper! The last thing I'm going to do is start tube rolling on a headphone amp, while I'm no stranger to activity it with instrument amplifiers I'll leave that variable out of my personal listening coloration's. What would be the point of getting a super transparent transducer in a great package and running it coloured. Use a pro eq or plugin for better millage, you can always opt out. Lately I've just stopped listening to bad recordings, not depriving myself of anything, just a nice way to move on and expand my repertoire. 

 

Spend wisely :D

 

 

here's something from a while back, a ham handed quick record of one of my fav guitar covers.

great.

 

I am surprised by cheaper part.

 

 

 

 

 

I understand that expensive stuff can only offer higher refinement and more vivid picture instead of more detail than say a very good 500$ headphone like Beyerdynamic t90.

 

Or it lets you hear more detail and instrument layers ? Given they are driven by most optimum amp for that headphone.

 

As for cables and other snake oil stuff, I will never spend on them. Not because I am a non believer, but if its debatable, its perhaps very subtle. then I dont care anyways. difference should be immediately apparent if I spend that much.

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