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Audible Differences in Copper vs. Silver Cables? - Page 5

post #61 of 189

Now that I look up the conductivity of copper wiring I see that the effect would be very small on the total impedance. Enough to give me a decent level of doubt as to how audible to difference would be. I hadn't looked properly at any numbers last night to see exactly what size the impedance of the wire tends to be as I was in a rush. I was misremembering the order of magnitude by one, so my internal "back of a napkin" maths was off. Enough so to push what I was expecting to be an effect approaching negligible to the point of likely negligibility. The effect exists, but it would take a system really on the edge and a very decent length of wire to have a good chance of being audible.


 

Still, I leave it as a point of academic interest.


Edited by yblad - 6/10/13 at 12:13pm
post #62 of 189

Go to a meet, seek headphone with replaceable cable with different cables, try it on a quiet corner with a song you're familiar with. Or hear with number instead and remain blissfully that way forever.

post #63 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by laon View Post

Go to a meet, seek headphone with replaceable cable with different cables, try it on a quiet corner with a song you're familiar with. Or hear with number instead and remain blissfully that way forever.

 

I am neither pro or against the idea of there being a difference. It would be foolish to be so on a question which is still so open to scientific debate and in need of more analysis. The placebo effect is very strong however, and I don't trust even my own perception to be correct. It's perfectly possible that I would hear a difference where there isn't one. The only way to ever actually answer the question is through science. Which is what I attempt to do.

 

And like all good scientists, I am perfectly ready to turn against my own argument when I notice an error I hadn't seen before tongue.gif

post #64 of 189
It will always be this way. Some will never leave their formulas and try things, it's not logical. Those people have no experience but will be the boldest and loudest to tell those who have experience and found differences that they're wrong. They've determined it not to be of their view of acceptable value. Our bodies are corrupt, not as accurate as a piece of measurement gear, just about every negative method possible to justify their opinions. Of course the biggest method is the value of a component. Judging how people spend their money as foolish, naive, etc. to shame the opposing side and get a flock to follow their side of an argument. And that's mostly what it is, people who love to win arguments, not someone what gives 2c about your financial well being. The best advice to such nonsense is to try it yourself and ignore the debate. It tells a lot about your interest and if you are sincere in learning or just want to choose a side of an argument. Ignorance has been around a long time because it is so easy to maintain. Experience takes effort.

When you look at all the systems on here and elsewhere, something should be obvious. There are about as many with gear that's argued against as there are those arguing. The reason there is high end gear isn't because of arrogance or vanity or a vested interest in it. They have found a selection of components that combine to make the whole the best of what's right to them, within their means. There is a system for every budget and not meant for everybody. It wouldn't make sense to have a $50 pair of headphones and put a $500 cable on it. So keep the perspective in mind when reading discussions.

This is not to say everything that comes to market is better. This is a sponsored site and the goal is to make money. That's not a bad thing as we all have to live. So in this respect, it is wise to again follow the advice above and try it yourself or follow those you trust that have tried it. There are many hobbyists that try things continuously and have an informed opinion based on their efforts. Then there are those who like to jump on a new product and make claims of fantastic improvement in performance so as to be part of the "cool" crowd. When some experienced hobbyists give a listen and finds it's not what's claimed, it quickly gets pushed off on the newbs while the chatter is hot and it still holds value. Some prices demanded for some of these products is laughable but usually gets "found out" and quickly squashed. Then some are true gems of quality and value. It's part of the journey to explore and learn. If you don't want to explore, that's fine. But don't criticize those who do because it doesn't fit your view or value system. Everyone is right in their own world.
post #65 of 189

I have buy some months ago a silver cable for my IE80, I want to give a try and get at the same time a spare cable. For me the bass was more controlled and sound stage increase a little bit with this cable. Don't know if is suggestive or not, but I'm happy using my new cable and this is the most important for me, a better satisfaction when I listening music, that all I want when a purchase a new audio product.

post #66 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chops View Post

Hooking cables to an analyser may not show any differences between cables, but I really do not think it is a myth. Before I knew that silver cables were "brighter" from others, I noticed it the first time I bought a pair and hooked them up to my system.


I don't think analysers or engineers can prove that one cable sounds differenct from another based on the materials used. Some things just can't be explained.


Just like "burning-in" cables. No one has been able to explain why a cable changes in sound over time from burn-in, but they always do. There are no moving parts in a cable, so it isn't that the cable gets "trained" to sound better over time, like parting your hair to one side for years, then switching it to another direction.



Yes, I know. It's a weird analogy, but it gets the point across.

yes I agree, personally I think the difference is just a colour or cosmetic difference to the cable itself.
the burn in that we must do on the headphone is for the driver I guess ?
post #67 of 189

Distortion in copper is well below the threshold for the human ear.
It would take an enormous length of wire to detect any sort of impedance in a copper wire. Silver is just more expensive, and a slightly better conductor. But once again, 0+.0000001 for all practical purposes =0 

tl;dr: a 5$ monoprice cable sounds as good as a 400$ double helix.
 

post #68 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by wafflezz View Post

Distortion in copper is well below the threshold for the human ear.

It would take an enormous length of wire to detect any sort of impedance in a copper wire. Silver is just more expensive, and a slightly better conductor. But once again, 0+.0000001 for all practical purposes =0 


tl;dr: a 5$ monoprice cable sounds as good as a 400$ double helix.

 

wow, does that means the expensive Toxic cable shielded and braided silver + 1% gold is hardly any difference compare to the stock cable (Silver coated copper cable) ?

some people said that it is just a microphonics difference with shielded cable, if that is the case then there is no need to upgrade to expensive cable for indoor listening use.
post #69 of 189

The number said so!

post #70 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post

It will always be this way. Some will never leave their formulas and try things, it's not logical. Those people have no experience but will be the boldest and loudest to tell those who have experience and found differences that they're wrong. They've determined it not to be of their view of acceptable value. Our bodies are corrupt, not as accurate as a piece of measurement gear, just about every negative method possible to justify their opinions. Of course the biggest method is the value of a component. Judging how people spend their money as foolish, naive, etc. to shame the opposing side and get a flock to follow their side of an argument. And that's mostly what it is, people who love to win arguments, not someone what gives 2c about your financial well being. The best advice to such nonsense is to try it yourself and ignore the debate. It tells a lot about your interest and if you are sincere in learning or just want to choose a side of an argument. Ignorance has been around a long time because it is so easy to maintain. Experience takes effort.

When you look at all the systems on here and elsewhere, something should be obvious. There are about as many with gear that's argued against as there are those arguing. The reason there is high end gear isn't because of arrogance or vanity or a vested interest in it. They have found a selection of components that combine to make the whole the best of what's right to them, within their means. There is a system for every budget and not meant for everybody. It wouldn't make sense to have a $50 pair of headphones and put a $500 cable on it. So keep the perspective in mind when reading discussions.

This is not to say everything that comes to market is better. This is a sponsored site and the goal is to make money. That's not a bad thing as we all have to live. So in this respect, it is wise to again follow the advice above and try it yourself or follow those you trust that have tried it. There are many hobbyists that try things continuously and have an informed opinion based on their efforts. Then there are those who like to jump on a new product and make claims of fantastic improvement in performance so as to be part of the "cool" crowd. When some experienced hobbyists give a listen and finds it's not what's claimed, it quickly gets pushed off on the newbs while the chatter is hot and it still holds value. Some prices demanded for some of these products is laughable but usually gets "found out" and quickly squashed. Then some are true gems of quality and value. It's part of the journey to explore and learn. If you don't want to explore, that's fine. But don't criticize those who do because it doesn't fit your view or value system. Everyone is right in their own world.

One of my favourite posts ever. First you claim that the definition of logic isn't logical, and then you attack something that no one actually said. I said repeatedly I am in no way against the idea of there being a difference, and in fact offered two possible ways in which they could exist. Maybe you should read things before you reply to them in the future wink.gif I explore more than most. The difference is that when I explore I try and answer why the difference I hear is there, and I accept that my brain can fooled. Just because you hear something doesn't make it real. If you can't accept that I feel sorry for you, delusions are a sad thing to base opinions on.
post #71 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by yblad View Post

One of my favourite posts ever. First you claim that the definition of logic isn't logical, and then you attack something that no one actually said. I said repeatedly I am in no way against the idea of there being a difference, and in fact offered two possible ways in which they could exist. Maybe you should read things before you reply to them in the future wink.gif I explore more than most. The difference is that when I explore I try and answer why the difference I hear is there, and I accept that my brain can fooled. Just because you hear something doesn't make it real. If you can't accept that I feel sorry for you, delusions are a sad thing to base opinions on.
This wasn't intended to you but the science posse. But I can understand your thinking it was.
post #72 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post

It will always be this way. Some will never leave their formulas and try things, it's not logical. Those people have no experience but will be the boldest and loudest to tell those who have experience and found differences that they're wrong. They've determined it not to be of their view of acceptable value. Our bodies are corrupt, not as accurate as a piece of measurement gear, just about every negative method possible to justify their opinions. Of course the biggest method is the value of a component. Judging how people spend their money as foolish, naive, etc. to shame the opposing side and get a flock to follow their side of an argument. And that's mostly what it is, people who love to win arguments, not someone what gives 2c about your financial well being. The best advice to such nonsense is to try it yourself and ignore the debate. It tells a lot about your interest and if you are sincere in learning or just want to choose a side of an argument. Ignorance has been around a long time because it is so easy to maintain. Experience takes effort.

When you look at all the systems on here and elsewhere, something should be obvious. There are about as many with gear that's argued against as there are those arguing. The reason there is high end gear isn't because of arrogance or vanity or a vested interest in it. They have found a selection of components that combine to make the whole the best of what's right to them, within their means. There is a system for every budget and not meant for everybody. It wouldn't make sense to have a $50 pair of headphones and put a $500 cable on it. So keep the perspective in mind when reading discussions.

This is not to say everything that comes to market is better. This is a sponsored site and the goal is to make money. That's not a bad thing as we all have to live. So in this respect, it is wise to again follow the advice above and try it yourself or follow those you trust that have tried it. There are many hobbyists that try things continuously and have an informed opinion based on their efforts. Then there are those who like to jump on a new product and make claims of fantastic improvement in performance so as to be part of the "cool" crowd. When some experienced hobbyists give a listen and finds it's not what's claimed, it quickly gets pushed off on the newbs while the chatter is hot and it still holds value. Some prices demanded for some of these products is laughable but usually gets "found out" and quickly squashed. Then some are true gems of quality and value. It's part of the journey to explore and learn. If you don't want to explore, that's fine. But don't criticize those who do because it doesn't fit your view or value system. Everyone is right in their own world.

Look I'm not trying to put down anyone or try to invalidate their purchases. Obviously expensive cables are going to be more durable, more flexible and easier to work with(most of the time anyways). It just makes me throw up when they spend thousands on "audiophile" cables and even power outlets and think it actually makes an audible difference with *clarity*. I mean...I could get decent SQ out of a coat hanger if I really wanted to. The cable is almost never a bottleneck in the sound chain.

post #73 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post


This wasn't intended to you but the science posse.

 

Er, the "science posse"?

 

se

post #74 of 189
Now here is a quick question...

How many here wear a "Q-Ray" bracelet?

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk 2
post #75 of 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

Er, the "science posse"?

se


Oh, ok.......


Edited by Happy Camper - 6/22/13 at 9:32am
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