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post #6586 of 6600
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-Daniel
post #6587 of 6600

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post #6589 of 6600

that $1k that was quoted includes the cable and wood connectors, not just the mods. $700 for the cable hardly seems outlandish given the cost of "audiophile" cabling...  the fact that james charges as much as he does is because of the labor involved in making his cables and in doing his modifications, not to mention the countless hours of listening and comparing he has done to arrive at these cables and modifications... so it's like the tesla of the headphone cable world - the early adopters will have to pay a premium for the r&d...

 

MelvinV, you have no idea what you're talking about.  your knee-jerk reaction that if it's expensive it must only be the placebo effect is not substantiated by anyone with good ears.   how about calming down long enough to let the blood drain from your yours and give a listen... where did gold-plating come into the discussion?  have you ever subjectively tested different cable topologies?  if so, then name the cables.  if not, then your rant is falling on deaf ears.  if you'd read my post, you would see that i am NOT advocating spending heaps of money of cables.  if you read my post you would see that, in fact, i advocate the opposite.  i advocate either ripping apart your current cables to free them from grunge, or having the courage to seek out someone who makes cables a different way from all the cables you have ever heard.  not fancy crystalline structures and other voodoo.  different ways of making a cable. 

 

and regarding measureability.  the corollary of what you are saying is that scientific measurement trumps all.  trumps subjective hearing. trumps emotion.  trumps the countless uncontrollable variables that are always introduced into non-perfect, real-life listening scenarios.  i'll give you a little hint: measurements don't measure **** -- except some impossible-to-corroborate, innate character of a piece of equipment prior to it actually being used by a human.  if you want to know how a machine "listens" - then great.  now you know.  if you want to know how a human listens, then spend a long time listening.  a long long time.  then come back with your findings.   if you've ever listened to vinyl then you know there can be six albums from the same company, same pressing, same pressing date, using the same master tapes, etc. and all with the same frequency measurements yet there is one that sounds head and shoulders above the rest.  it can't be measured, at least not always.  there is a certain way the frequencies come together - with your equipment of course - and that record is the one you want to play over and over.  same thing with tubes.  exact some construction, same date code, same measurements on all the testers, and yet one sounds better.  i would actually call you out as suffering from a reverse-placebo effect: your anger and mistrust of anything you don't know and can't know will never allow you to hear the differences.

 

if we lived nearer I would invite you over to listen to the stock HD800 and the modded/re-cabled HD800 and then you would know...

post #6590 of 6600

Slowly getting forum overload looking for a new amp / DAC to run my hd800's...any UK based recommendations?

post #6591 of 6600
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelvinV View Post

... I guess not. And I'm sure that the human ear just can't hear the difference. Humans need to stop overrating themselves, we're not as "great" and "smart" as we think we are, we are just raping earth by burning all those fossil fuels after all. Only a small percentage of people truly cares about the people around them, money and status comes first for most. It's all about the "I have a $5000 this and you don't have it!"-factor.

 

Revolution I say! 

 

 

Yeah, **** those with money and power and status! Let's make them rich ****s into peasants and see how things go!

post #6592 of 6600

I replied to the individual parts in the quote itself, because I'm lazy.

Kind of an interesting argument, although most here have probably read this over a billion times already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fejnomit View Post

that $1k that was quoted includes the cable and wood connectors, not just the mods. $700 for the cable hardly seems outlandish given the cost of "audiophile" cabling...  the fact that james charges as much as he does is because of the labor involved in making his cables and in doing his modifications, not to mention the countless hours of listening and comparing he has done to arrive at these cables and modifications... so it's like the tesla of the headphone cable world - the early adopters will have to pay a premium for the r&d...

 

Me: I don't believe that these cables will ever become mainstream unless technology becomes so advanced that it costs nothing to produce ultra-high-purity cables. I also think that these mods will never become mainstream, these mods do change the sound signature AFAIK, everyone has a different taste after all. But I love the HD800s as they are and I don't think you can say that those mods make it better, I'd say it would make them different. I assume that Sennheiser knows what they're doing, I don't think they're some retards.

Sure he does a lot of labor, I'm not saying he's ripping you off. If you both believe in cables (I'm not saying that custom cables make no difference, that's my opinion) than yeah... enjoy your cables.

 

MelvinV, you have no idea what you're talking about.  your knee-jerk reaction that if it's expensive it must only be the placebo effect is not substantiated by anyone with good ears.   how about calming down long enough to let the blood drain from your yours and give a listen... where did gold-plating come into the discussion?  have you ever subjectively tested different cable topologies?  if so, then name the cables.  if not, then your rant is falling on deaf ears.  if you'd read my post, you would see that i am NOT advocating spending heaps of money of cables.  if you read my post you would see that, in fact, i advocate the opposite.  i advocate either ripping apart your current cables to free them from grunge, or having the courage to seek out someone who makes cables a different way from all the cables you have ever heard.  not fancy crystalline structures and other voodoo.  different ways of making a cable. 

 

Me: I'm not saying that it's placebo, and I do, in fact, have good ears. There might be a slight-slight difference which, to my belief, just isn't audible to the human ear. Also, ranting does not mean that I'm angry. I'm just giving my opinion (in a bitchy manner, probably) about a certain subject, no point about talking about this "my boiling blood" though, as that is all subjective.

Gold-plating was kind of random, I admit that. But there is just no advantage to gold plating. If your connector is rusting, you are doing something wrong. I'll leave the argument about gold-plating behind as it has nothing to do with cables.

I've never heard any custom cables because there is just no place to test them out in the Netherlands... yeah, well, that sucks.

I don't know that much about topology, but I can't imagine it making a difference. And does it even matter? AFAIK, the way the cable's molecules (the actual wire) is bound (isotopes and what not) does not make a difference. And if it does, it's way, way, way too small to be noticed by anything in this world made by humans. I don't believe in making cables in a different way, its not like there is a atom called "love" or something like that. It's all about what rolls out, doesn't matter if a Chinese kid did it or if a masterful company somewhere in America did it. In the end, it's all about the stupid electrons going from A to B. And there is just no proof that they'll "move" any different with a specially built cable with special™. My father used to be a guy in the pro-audio world and they used really simple cables (not poor quality ones though) there and just soldered some plugs on them myself. No special penta-helix (random example, not sure if it exists) and stuff like that.

 

and regarding measureability.  the corollary of what you are saying is that scientific measurement trumps all.  trumps subjective hearing. trumps emotion.  trumps the countless uncontrollable variables that are always introduced into non-perfect, real-life listening scenarios.  i'll give you a little hint: measurements don't measure **** -- except some impossible-to-corroborate, innate character of a piece of equipment prior to it actually being used by a human.  if you want to know how a machine "listens" - then great.  now you know.  if you want to know how a human listens, then spend a long time listening.  a long long time.  then come back with your findings.   if you've ever listened to vinyl then you know there can be six albums from the same company, same pressing, same pressing date, using the same master tapes, etc. and all with the same frequency measurements yet there is one that sounds head and shoulders above the rest.  it can't be measured, at least not always.  there is a certain way the frequencies come together - with your equipment of course - and that record is the one you want to play over and over.  same thing with tubes.  exact some construction, same date code, same measurements on all the testers, and yet one sounds better.  i would actually call you out as suffering from a reverse-placebo effect: your anger and mistrust of anything you don't know and can't know will never allow you to hear the differences.

 

Me: I agree about the emotions part, but emotions are what causes all the problems on this world. That's why war and what not exists in the first place. But it is at the same time what makes humans "human" (and other animals in general).

About the vinyl, if they are exactly the same (measured the same waveform, exactly, completely 100% the same thing) you wouldn't notice any difference. But because of the fact that it is analog, it can have all kinds of interference. Now I'm not sure about things in this department, but perhaps the heating up of part X causes it to sound "better", or perhaps it's the temperature of the air or whatever the hell it is. Analog is unreliable unless played back in a (non-existent) perfect location.

This also makes digital wrong, because at a point it went to digital and that chip isn't perfect as well, same with the DAC and everything else.

The small differences in these things is because the manufacturing process isn't accurate enough.

If 3D printers get advanced enough, I think that this problem would be solved. With machinery used currently, it isn't possible. Every single thing is slightly different. This would also mean the very measurement equipment used isn't perfect and that the standards are based upon something that isn't even perfect. There have been no blind tests (that I know of) where expensive, advanced cable X was rated better than standard cable Y by a lot of people. It's usually 50/50 or something like that.

 

if we lived nearer I would invite you over to listen to the stock HD800 and the modded/re-cabled HD800 and then you would know...

 

Me: The mod probably causes it so sound different, not better or worse because it's all subjective.

If you want the "real" sound you would have to get custom phones/something that is the reverse of the FR of your ear. Now I can only imagine how strange that would sound. And perhaps stock HD800 has 1 dust particle on the driver?  Perfect just doesn't exist in this world, not in physical things.

post #6593 of 6600

fejnomit, Well stated…

 

I just ordered 2 AC power cables  from SAA to test them to see what they sound like.  I will be comparing them to my DIY cables that are WAY better than the $1.95 appliance cable that are supplied with every piece of equipment.  Mine cost $55, and I still have a few things to improve and a few experiments yet to perform, just to see…

 

Once I get the SAA AC power cables here and listen to them they will either improve the audible experience or they won't.  But based upon what I have learned thus far and the techniques and methodology being employed by SAA I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

 

And I have been looking for a means and method to hardwire my 800's for a while now. Those tiny connectors are a definite choke point. It looks like SAA might very well be the answer.  And if they are then a set of balanced HD-800 Q Audio cables could very well be up for sale…

 

For those who say cables make no difference then it MUST be true… for you.  For me, and others, it simply isn't the case.  Is it a difference in our hearing ability?  Or perhaps just an open ended sense of curiosity and willingness to explore?  I don't know, BUT I do know I hear differences in most cables.  And granted some don't make that much difference, but some do and these differences are remarkable.  Those are the differences I seek.

 

This is a hobby and as such I enjoy 'playing around' with differences and exploring what does and does not increase my enjoyment of music.  Sometimes the low cost 'playing around' is WAY more enjoyable than the big$$$ items.

 

Are we having fun yet?

 

JJ

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fejnomit View Post

that $1k that was quoted includes the cable and wood connectors, not just the mods. $700 for the cable hardly seems outlandish given the cost of "audiophile" cabling...  the fact that james charges as much as he does is because of the labor involved in making his cables and in doing his modifications, not to mention the countless hours of listening and comparing he has done to arrive at these cables and modifications... so it's like the tesla of the headphone cable world - the early adopters will have to pay a premium for the r&d...

 

MelvinV, you have no idea what you're talking about.  your knee-jerk reaction that if it's expensive it must only be the placebo effect is not substantiated by anyone with good ears.   how about calming down long enough to let the blood drain from your yours and give a listen... where did gold-plating come into the discussion?  have you ever subjectively tested different cable topologies?  if so, then name the cables.  if not, then your rant is falling on deaf ears.  if you'd read my post, you would see that i am NOT advocating spending heaps of money of cables.  if you read my post you would see that, in fact, i advocate the opposite.  i advocate either ripping apart your current cables to free them from grunge, or having the courage to seek out someone who makes cables a different way from all the cables you have ever heard.  not fancy crystalline structures and other voodoo.  different ways of making a cable. 

 

and regarding measureability.  the corollary of what you are saying is that scientific measurement trumps all.  trumps subjective hearing. trumps emotion.  trumps the countless uncontrollable variables that are always introduced into non-perfect, real-life listening scenarios.  i'll give you a little hint: measurements don't measure **** -- except some impossible-to-corroborate, innate character of a piece of equipment prior to it actually being used by a human.  if you want to know how a machine "listens" - then great.  now you know.  if you want to know how a human listens, then spend a long time listening.  a long long time.  then come back with your findings.   if you've ever listened to vinyl then you know there can be six albums from the same company, same pressing, same pressing date, using the same master tapes, etc. and all with the same frequency measurements yet there is one that sounds head and shoulders above the rest.  it can't be measured, at least not always.  there is a certain way the frequencies come together - with your equipment of course - and that record is the one you want to play over and over.  same thing with tubes.  exact some construction, same date code, same measurements on all the testers, and yet one sounds better.  i would actually call you out as suffering from a reverse-placebo effect: your anger and mistrust of anything you don't know and can't know will never allow you to hear the differences.

 

if we lived nearer I would invite you over to listen to the stock HD800 and the modded/re-cabled HD800 and then you would know...

post #6594 of 6600
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

 

Revolution I say! 

 

 

Yeah, **** those with money and power and status! Let's make them rich ****s into peasants and see how things go!


I'm not sure if you're throwing oil on the fire, are trolling or if you're being serious.

But even democracy is "corrupt" (yeah, wth is corrupt anyway? aren't we all corrupt?), not going into that though.

But thinking about humans in a objective (non-human™) way (which will get you flagged as "different", psychologically retarded, etc) it's just all true.

One wants to be better than the other, one wants more stuff/money, one wants a sexier wife (random stuff?) than the other, always, no matter what.

And the people that help others feel better when doing so, they're helping others to feel better themselves. It makes them think that they're contributing to the filthy race human society.

Because it's human nature, because humans are animals and aren't perfect as well. But who am I, typing about perfectness when I'm not perfect myself?

Hey, perhaps I'm seen as a retard who hates humans now? Who knows, human psychology is interesting, in the same way as looking at animals doing stuff in interesting.

So far, only computers are doing things perfectly (AFAIK), but because of their "lack" of emotions, they don't know what to do with unknown situations.

 

Edit: @johnjen: We're still humans. And humans are still stupid curious about everything. Although grown-up humans do limit their stupidness curiosity.

And yes, I'm contradicting myself here, because I'm also a stupid curious guy. This very stupidness curiosity causes humans to waste a lot of energy.

Not that it matters, it's just a matter of time before humans blow up the planet or the sun blows up or something else (humans will do it first though, probably) and all of our stupid bullsh*t discoveries will be forgotten.

 

Edit 2: I'm having fun writing this, hopefully the other parties do as well. Emotions, right?

 

Hey, this is the HD800 thread, right? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Edited by MelvinV - 2/7/13 at 2:00pm
post #6595 of 6600

I am absolutely serious.

 

Obviously the only way to settle this matter is to forcibly take the $1k interconnects, $5k tubes amps, $2k headphones away from the rich fat cats and give them to the students, working poor, etc. Likewise, the the rich fat cats should be forced only to listen to measurably excellent devices such as Nwavguy's Obj2 amp with radio shack interconnects and $200 value headphones such as ATH-M50, HD598, HE-400, etc.

post #6596 of 6600
Quote:

Obviously the only way to settle this matter is to forcibly take the $1k interconnects, $5k tubes amps, $2k headphones away from the rich fat cats and give them to the students, working poor, etc. Likewise, the the rich fat cats should be forced only to listen to measurably excellent devices such as Nwavguy's Obj2 amp with radio shack interconnects and $200 value headphones such as ATH-M50, HD598, HE-400, etc.

beerchug.gif

 

my argument to mr. melvin is the same!  i say free the electrons from their soul-killing dielectrics!!!  revolution of the signal!!!

 

 

melvin --

 

your world is sad and dark and i don't like it.  emotions are what cause all the problems?  no.  wrong.  backwards.  running from emotions causes all the problems.

 

 

Quote:
I don't know that much about topology, but I can't imagine it making a difference. And does it even matter? AFAIK, the way the cable's molecules (the actual wire) is bound (isotopes and what not) does not make a difference

 

no, you don't know much about it, do you? and you didn't read, either.  i never said anything about molecules/the actual wire/isotopes and whatnot.  our arguments are actually the same if you'd bother to follow along.  almost everything that goes into housing the "actual wire" in a cable causes smearing/bloating/compressing of the signal that travels across "the actual wire."  as you can see above, i want "the actual wire" to be free of all those things so we can "actually" hear the music being carried across it.  every connection, every relay, every component from source to your ears/brain represents a LOSS in signal.  my argument is to try to FREE that signal from as much of this loss as possible.  not add some magic special sauce. the signal will never be pure. it encounters far too much meddling between source and synapse.  but we can try to minimize the damage done to the signal on its way - THAT is my point. 

 

and, by the way, james at Stefan Audio Art was a head designer at Sennheiser for two decades so he actually does know all the shortcomings of the HD800 inside and out.  his attempts, to state it again, are to FREE the signal from things that get in its way, like smearing dielectrics on stock cables and smearing connectors and distortions introduced by unneeded parts of the headphone like the mesh shields, etc.

post #6597 of 6600

Melvin is right in my book, we do overrate our ears a bit too much. I think, from an engineer's mind, there is no way we can hear any audible differences through changing an already great stock cable to gold or whatever. It's more a psychological trick, but hey, if it works for you, then you should continue doing that. After all it can be justly attributed to this hobby like someone else said in this thread, however I think it's better to DIY any cables as they are pretty simple to do and it's great practice for your hands.


Edited by dukeskd - 2/7/13 at 3:28pm
post #6598 of 6600
Quote:
Originally Posted by fejnomit View Post

that $1k that was quoted includes the cable and wood connectors, not just the mods. $700 for the cable hardly seems outlandish given the cost of "audiophile" cabling...  the fact that james charges as much as he does is because of the labor involved in making his cables and in doing his modifications, not to mention the countless hours of listening and comparing he has done to arrive at these cables and modifications... so it's like the tesla of the headphone cable world - the early adopters will have to pay a premium for the r&d...

 

MelvinV, you have no idea what you're talking about.  your knee-jerk reaction that if it's expensive it must only be the placebo effect is not substantiated by anyone with good ears.   how about calming down long enough to let the blood drain from your yours and give a listen... where did gold-plating come into the discussion?  have you ever subjectively tested different cable topologies?  if so, then name the cables.  if not, then your rant is falling on deaf ears.  if you'd read my post, you would see that i am NOT advocating spending heaps of money of cables.  if you read my post you would see that, in fact, i advocate the opposite.  i advocate either ripping apart your current cables to free them from grunge, or having the courage to seek out someone who makes cables a different way from all the cables you have ever heard.  not fancy crystalline structures and other voodoo.  different ways of making a cable. 

 

and regarding measureability.  the corollary of what you are saying is that scientific measurement trumps all.  trumps subjective hearing. trumps emotion.  trumps the countless uncontrollable variables that are always introduced into non-perfect, real-life listening scenarios.  i'll give you a little hint: measurements don't measure **** -- except some impossible-to-corroborate, innate character of a piece of equipment prior to it actually being used by a human.  if you want to know how a machine "listens" - then great.  now you know.  if you want to know how a human listens, then spend a long time listening.  a long long time.  then come back with your findings.   if you've ever listened to vinyl then you know there can be six albums from the same company, same pressing, same pressing date, using the same master tapes, etc. and all with the same frequency measurements yet there is one that sounds head and shoulders above the rest.  it can't be measured, at least not always.  there is a certain way the frequencies come together - with your equipment of course - and that record is the one you want to play over and over.  same thing with tubes.  exact some construction, same date code, same measurements on all the testers, and yet one sounds better.  i would actually call you out as suffering from a reverse-placebo effect: your anger and mistrust of anything you don't know and can't know will never allow you to hear the differences.

 

if we lived nearer I would invite you over to listen to the stock HD800 and the modded/re-cabled HD800 and then you would know...

50.00 in material and the rest for what. Seriously something wrong with that kind of pricing and 700.00 outrageous for any cable considering the best occ copper is about 1.00 ft

post #6599 of 6600

that's just completely ignorant, especially from an "engineer's" perspective.  the debate is not about changing copper to gold or anything like that.  but let's start there - from an *engineer's* perspective.  you would agree that different metals have different sonic properties, no?  electrons move through them and across them in different ways.  i hope you would also agree that different gauges of round wire of any those metals have different sonic properties because of the different speeds at which the signal travels based on the surface area available to it.  and I think you would agree - if you've ever heard them - that different shapes - like rectangular or square or triangle or ribbon shaped wires - also have different sonic properties because of the way electrons travel across those surfaces as well.  i also think you would agree that if we took any combination of said metals, gauges and/or shapes and braided them or twisted them in a host of different geometries, this would also impart a sonic characteristic on the signal as the electrons travel across these different metals and gauges and shapes at different speeds and in different ways, interacting with the other electrons in waves created by the other conductors near to it or far from it, etc, etc. etc.  all of the answers to these questions are YES and they are based in science and they are measurable.  if you then took any combination of ALL these variables and were to measure the effect of putting them in contact with OTHER elements - other metals, plastics, liquids, gases, etc. - these would also affect the way the electrons move across the conductor.  what you put it, in other words, is NOT what you get out.  what you put in BECOMES what it travels through.  then it comes out.  this is science.  engineering.  whatever iron-clad rules you want to invoke.  given all this, then, what is it that you don't understand about why cables matter?  surely you would agree that tubes have sonic signatures? and capacitors? and resistors?  different connectors?  that's the problem with your argument.  you assume electrons moving in some way independent of their medium.  not possible.  and once you say cables don't matter then you have to say NONE of the other methods for transporting electrons matter either - meaning optical readers, dac chips, stylii - none it changes the signal??

post #6600 of 6600

Really now who being ignorant? The debate your making has nothing to do with what I sai. The bess occ copper is less than a 1.00 a foot. i could care less about molecules. My quote is that the price for a 700.00 headphone  cable is ridiculous if you look at what the cost of the materials are. the cable he is using is either copper or silver and if its silver lets say 2.00 ft. Whs ignorant in you saying everone else opinion except your is ignorant. Maybe your responses are the one which are ignorant.  Your argument belongs in the sound science forum not here for sure.Just saying


Edited by Frank I - 2/7/13 at 4:43pm
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