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Updated: HifiMAN HM-801 Portable Music Player Preorder - Page 48

post #706 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nankai View Post
DO NOT USE ANY CLASS 6 SDHC CARD! Class 6 SDHC card might fail the firmware. We are working on this problem now. Class 4 kingston is recommended.
Nice to know)thanx!
post #707 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nankai View Post
DO NOT USE ANY CLASS 6 SDHC CARD! Class 6 SDHC card might fail the firmware. We are working on this problem now. Class 4 kingston is recommended.
I was curious and did a few minutes research about class 4 vs class 6 cards. First thing was to look look up some SDHC card benchmarks online. For example:
Benchmarks SDHC Memory Card Charts at Tom's Hardware
Kingston 32GB Class 4 SDHC Review - Hardware Bistro

A couple of things stand out. Most benchmarks (I looked at half a dozen others) are based on writing images on a camera. For that you want a fast random access write speed. The SDHC class ratings are based on this kind of use. (SD Speed Class - SD Card Association). When it comes to reading--which is what we care about for music--the rating seems to be a good guide to random access reads on fragmented cards (where you've been copying and removing songs for a long time) that are formatted with small sector sizes. At larger sector sizes on cards that are less fragmented, the SDHC ratings are pretty useless.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I think a WAV at 96/24 would have a theoretical maximum rate of under 12MB/s, and more realistically under 8MB/s. Tom's Hardware lists an average read speed of 15MB/s with a class 4 Kingston card. The class 6 card only improves this to 19.6MB/S. Both of these have enough speed to read the music, although these ratings assume optimal conditions.

The Hardware Bistro benchmark relates read speed to sector size. The CrystalDiskMark numbers suggest that the ratings only hold up by formatting the card with a large sector. The class 4 Kingston card achieves a read speed of 6.5 MB/s with 512kB sectors, but only 2.5kB/s with 4kB sectors. I think the difference between these is that the 4kB mimics a full and fragmented card. Note how this number is below the SDHC required write speed. That's because the specification allows the device to ask the card for the best place to write, and that assumes there is a best place to write. This also suggests that you want to leave enough free space on the card to move at least one large song around. (Fang, are your engineers listening?)

Even at 2MB/s, the speed issue should never come up on a class 4 card using 44/16 CD quality FLAC. With high resolution music, a class 6 card might buy some more speed, or might not. There's no way to tell from the card's rating. Some of the brands don't improve sequential read speed much at all.

While there's not enough detail in the benchmarks to go further, there are some things we can do. There's no reason to assume we'll get much benefit from using a class 6 card. The average read speed (it's really the optimal sequential speed) of a class 4 card is more than adequate for 96/24 WAV. The SDHC cards we're likely to use will be formatted with an average sector size of probably about 32kB, which means we won't see those low read speeds that show in the fragmented benchmark number. The actual read speed might be anywhere from 2.5 to 15MB/s, and more than likely won't drop much below the rated 4MB/s, given our larger sectors. For fragmented cards, the speed probably has more to do with seek time than anything else.

One thing that's clear is the actual read speed we get with our DAPs depends more on how we load the card than on the card's class, and we can do something about that.
1. If the card's already fragmented from moving a lot of songs around, erase the card and reload the songs.
2. If it still skips, and you're using high resoltuoin formats, reformat the card using a larger sector size, using some formatting tool, if necessary. Then write the songs over again to keep the data together.
3. Use flac instead of wav to cut the file size in half.
4. Don't fill the card, but always leave space for one last song.
5. If you constantly update a few cards, leave a lot more free space. Remove songs before adding new ones. The card will still get fragmented this way, but it will be less fragmented if you do this.

My conclusion for now is that it doesn't make much sense to buy a class 6 card. They're twice the money right now, it's hard to see how the extra speed would be used, and there are workarounds for the worst cases. Being able to use a class 6 card you already have is a different story.


By the way, this might be useful to people outside this thread. I'm not sure how to handle that, or which forum is better to post it. Since this thread inspired the research, I put it here. Any suggestions?
post #708 of 1453
Glad I cheaped out and got Class 4 SDHC cards.
post #709 of 1453
I used a class 2 SanDisc 32 GB card and had no problem playing flac files in both 16/44 and 24/96.
post #710 of 1453
An SDHC has a microcontroller that manages the flash memory, they call it "wear levelling" due to the write limitation which is between 10K to 100K. There is really no such thing as a fragmented flash, unlike an HDD. You don't defrag nor scan an SDHC for sector errors. The microcontroller takes care of all that.
post #711 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuwhere View Post
An SDHC has a microcontroller that manages the flash memory, they call it "wear levelling" due to the write limitation which is between 10K to 100K. There is really no such thing as a fragmented flash, unlike an HDD. You don't defrag nor scan an SDHC for sector errors. The microcontroller takes care of all that.
True, but files can still be placed in non-continuous sectors, requiring some "seek" overhead when switching between non-contiguous sectors, which slows down reads and writes. The true meaning of the class rating is that the controller finds a place to write that guarantees the minimum speed can be achieved.

From http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/microsdhc:
Quote:
The SD Association has established a new specification rating for the minimum data transfer for standard and high-capacity cards as well as both types of host products. With the new Speed Class specifications, the host product can check the fragmented state in the card and calculate the write speed in each part of the card. The host can then determine where to write the data according to its speed requirement.The three microSDHC speed classes — Class 2, Class 4 and Class 6 — transfer data at least 2, 4 and 6 MB per second.
This should be in a different forum. Sorry.
post #712 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiBurning View Post
True, but files can still be placed in non-continuous sectors, requiring some "seek" overhead when switching between non-contiguous sectors, which slows down reads and writes. The true meaning of the class rating is that the controller finds a place to write that guarantees the minimum speed can be achieved.

From http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/microsdhc:
Flash is not the same as HDD as you are describing. It has no moving parts.
post #713 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiBurning View Post
This should be in a different forum.
Oops! I missed this one. Yes, I agree that there should be a different forum to discuss solid state memories like flash, SDHC, CF, and SSDs.
post #714 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nankai View Post
DO NOT USE ANY CLASS 6 SDHC CARD! Class 6 SDHC card might fail the firmware. We are working on this problem now. Class 4 kingston is recommended.
My HifiMan uses "A-DATA SDHC Class6 32GB".
There is no problem except resetting it first time.

Version:0.05
post #715 of 1453
I noticed the preorder has been paused today? Anyone know why?

Has anyone in the last few days received clear confirmation that the DAC chips will be 1704UK in the second preorder patch?
post #716 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by geering View Post
I noticed the preorder has been paused today? Anyone know why?

Has anyone in the last few days received clear confirmation that the DAC chips will be 1704UK in the second preorder patch?
Head-direct told me by email two days ago that they were
still waiting for confirmation from the supplier.
post #717 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by EGA View Post
My HifiMan uses "A-DATA SDHC Class6 32GB".
There is no problem except resetting it first time.

Version:0.05
Hi EGA,

Thanks for the info. I can find A-DATA SDHC nearby. By the way, when did you order the 801? Then we may know more the delivery status and have better hopes
post #718 of 1453
Must be an early unit as it uses the same version bios 0.05 as the beta unit I had and that Fang described as "not the final production bios".
post #719 of 1453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwood View Post
Sorry guys. Been busy with work. Just finished pulling an alnighter, going to be taking a nap soon. I had the HM-801 for only about a day. It had a strange high frequency noise issue, that is hopefully a fluke. It was most noticeable with my JH13's and only when touching the upper front panels and buttons. I have fairly sensitive hearing. My hearing's upper limit is around 19KHz. Fang was so kind to accept an immediate return and is quickly shipping me a new one.


-Ed
Edwood ~ from the pic it doesnt look like your unit is Laser crafted ? although i like what i saw completely.

so is it Teflon painted and laser crafted words still ?? thanks for sharing
post #720 of 1453
It was laser etched, but the "HifiMan" logo on the battery cover is the same color as the rest of the parts. It's just not the same color as the buttons as it was in the original pics.

I'd much rather have teflon paint rather than regular anodized finish. Besides, since there is a mix of steel and aluminum, painting is a better match anyways.

-Ed
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