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Audio Grade Fuses - Page 11

post #151 of 234

it's the same as high end cables, they might very well improve the SQ...but come-on, $27 for a gold plated Isoclean fuse? how much does it cost to manufacture? $0.3 in China? the SQ is irrelevant when the price is a such a blatant rip off.

post #152 of 234

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9pintube View Post

This Topic made me think back to my "Way Younger Years" when we use to wrap our blown fuses with aluminum foil, so we could rock on the rest of the evening......Just stupid Kids we(I) was?? How about you Uncle Erik, bring back any memories/ nightmares......  Big Popa, I haven't tried any super fuses!  I'd need 15 of those suckers, In my main system.....!!!!. 


Yes!  This topic reminds me of putting pennies behind blown fuses in the box.  Funny thing is that we recently replaced a panel in a rental house with circuitbreakers.  It still had the original fusebox from the late 1940s when the place was built.

 

A few times, I've mulled over various miniature circuitbreakers.  They have ones that are small enough to put in an amp.  It would be a safe way to avoid fuses altogether.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

it's the same as high end cables, they might very well improve the SQ...but come-on, $27 for a gold plated Isoclean fuse? how much does it cost to manufacture? $0.3 in China? the SQ is irrelevant when the price is a such a blatant rip off.


They're very cheap to manufacture.  A few tools and a slick marketing campaign would make you some money.  You wouldn't be UL rated, but it seems that very, very few of these aftermarket power devices are.

 

UL rating is one reason I won't touch 99% of these power devices other than in the lab.  How do you know that what's in the glass tube really will melt at a given input?  How do you know they're not just snowing you with something that isn't what they say it is?  Same goes for any of this tweako stuff.  I wonder how many of them are what they are sold as or if they're just another garden hose with Home Depot wire inside.

post #153 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

it's the same as high end cables, they might very well improve the SQ...but come-on, $27 for a gold plated Isoclean fuse? how much does it cost to manufacture? $0.3 in China? the SQ is irrelevant when the price is a such a blatant rip off.


Meh, if they really could improve the SQ I would not grumble too much about being fleeced for $27 for a 30c item. I just do not quite see how , since they are not in the signal path, that they could make much difference, that is why I would really like to see some proof that they do change the characteristics of the output signal, and since I am skeptical about subjective reports some FR before and after measurements is hardly rocket science ?

 

HiFi tuning fuses say "Each fuse is handmade and tested in germany". The only test for a fuse is that it blows when the current exceeds its rating, so once a boutique fuse has blown they can send it out fully tested, but the fuse they send you is intact so it cannot have been tested


Edited by nick_charles - 9/10/10 at 12:52pm
post #154 of 234

Another reason to avoid non UL rated stuff is the reaction you'll get from the insurance company if you ever damage your home from your gear while you're not there.  A "small but definite improvement" isn't worth losing a house over.

post #155 of 234
Thread Starter 

Some are gold plated, rhodium plated, and silver plated. Some are cryo'd and made by hand. It is just speculation that these fuses are only 30c items
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post


Meh, if they really could improve the SQ I would not grumble too much about being fleeced for $27 for a 30c item. I just do not quite see how , since they are not in the signal path, that they could make much difference, that is why I would really like to see some proof that they do change the characteristics of the output signal, and since I am skeptical about subjective reports some FR before and after measurements is hardly rocket science ?

post #156 of 234

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post

Some are gold plated, rhodium plated, and silver plated. Some are cryo'd and made by hand. It is just speculation that these fuses are only 30c items
 


Not entirely.  Glass tubing is dead cheap and easy to get.  A $5-$10 tool is all you need to cut it.  Silver closed at $19.74/oz. yesterday.  One ounce would probably plate hundreds, if not thousands, of tubes.  You can assemble a plating kit in your garage for maybe $50-$100.  The little end caps could be pressed by hand, or you could order bags by the thousand from China.  There's very little metal in them and not exactly a lot of machining.  A little bit of ceramic clay is dead cheap, and so is any epoxy or glue you use to hold them together.  Cryo is really cheap, too.  I haven't priced it for awhile, but I think it was $5 or $6 to have some plane blades treated.  One blade would probably take up the equivalent volume of three or four hundred fuses.

 

I suppose if you made a few jigs and built a few specialized tools, you could crank a lot of these out in your garage for probably no more than $1 each.  Labor would be nothing since there's so little to actually do.  It's not like an amp with 200, 300 or more connections to make.  If you're able to sell them at $30, you'll recover your tool costs after selling a handful.  They'd go into pure profit pretty fast.

 

Same thing with cables, by the way.

 

I wonder if it is any coincidence that the most controversial stuff in audio is always the least complex stuff that anyone can knock off in their garage or a spare bedroom.  It seems that the simpler something is, the more likely it will have magical claims, angry defiance of known science and sold at a fantastically high price.

 

You see some BS with headphones, amps and sources.  But those take some skill and know-how to build.

 

I think the simpler things, like fuses, cables, isolation devices, etc. have a much lower barrier to entry, so they're naturally attractive to those looking for a fast buck.


Edited by Uncle Erik - 9/10/10 at 2:06pm
post #157 of 234
Thread Starter 

These are made in Germany and in Japan, You seem to over simplify? Your speculation goes a long doesn't it?

post #158 of 234

If you are referring to HiFi-Tuning Fuses as made by HIFI-Tuning.com (as  I was) every reference to them I have seen says that they are made in Germany, if they are also made in Japan <shrug>.

 

Neither that nor their production costs alters the question of whether or not they make any difference, but if you want to go on wilfully missing the point be my guest.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post
 

These are made in Germany and in Japan, You seem to over simplify? Your speculation goes a long doesn't it?


Edited by nick_charles - 9/10/10 at 5:01pm
post #159 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG POPPA View Post


These are made in Germany and in Japan, You seem to over simplify? Your speculation goes a long doesn't it?



What do Germany and Japan have to do with anything? Importing goods adds cost, but a pricetag does not equal quality. Neither does it mean that they make any difference.

What's remarkable is that similar claims are made for these fuses no matter what they're plugged into. There are many different types of power supplies using many, many different types of components. If electricity is so sensitive to minute changes, then why doesn't the fuse behave differently depending on what kind of circuit it is feeding? An extra resistor or capacitor would behave differently depending on how it is employed, so why do fuses give the same benefits no matter what? It seems to point at a psychological difference rather than a physical one.
post #160 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by n3rdling View Post

Another reason to avoid non UL rated stuff is the reaction you'll get from the insurance company if you ever damage your home from your gear while you're not there.  A "small but definite improvement" isn't worth losing a house over.


unfortunately, you'll have to avoid DIY equipment all together then, if you're worried about insurance adjustors...

 

Uncle Erik: looks like you've considered other options. Why not try thermal breakers / PTCs?


Edited by luvdunhill - 9/10/10 at 7:10pm
post #161 of 234

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvdunhill View Post


unfortunately, you'll have to avoid DIY equipment all together then, if you're worried about insurance adjustors...

 

Uncle Erik: looks like you've considered other options. Why not try thermal breakers / PTCs?


DIY is sort of like food.  If I go out to eat, I have to trust the kitchen not to send me on a 4AM emergency trip to the bathroom.  Not a problem when I cook for myself, since I know what goes into the meal and am fussy about keeping it clean.  Same with DIY.  I've been through a bit of old tube gear, take safety seriously and read everything I can about good building practices.

 

However, I don't know what goes into aftermarket cables or other tweaks.  I'm not going to buy a $500 power cord and cut it open to see if it was built safely.  At least you can open up an amp.

 

The thermal breaker idea is an excellent one.  I think it would be excellent in a tube amp.  I'll make sure to dig a few up to play with the next time I visit Apex.

post #162 of 234

pretty nice devices. I use the Potter and Brumfield W28 series. They're panel mountable just like a fuse, and may even drop into some fuse knock outs. They are available down to 250mA, suitable for just about any project, solid-state or tube. Total cost around $5. For smaller current draws, PTCs are pretty nice and extremely easy to use. Last one I used had a hold current just over 1A and trip at 2A. Available from Raychem, which now is a division of Tyco. Part number was RUSBF110 I believe. Again, nice alternative to fuses.

post #163 of 234

Thermal breakers - sounds like a good idea.

 

I have a Dutch friend who was so knocked out by the Rhodium fuses ( he has the same h/amp as me) he bought me one and sent it as a present. I have to say that I thought he was losing it - how the hell can one fuse be so much better than another and to cap it all, he said they were directional - "Harry your crazy" - "try it and then tell me I'm crazy" was his reply.

 

So I did and he was'nt crazy at all. The problem here is that you will be attacked by those who spout from theory and not from practice. I cannot have any respect for the theory merchants but happily engage with those who have first hand experience.

 

If you can't or wont shell out for a Furutech fuse, here's an experiment to try - ONLY, AND I DO MEAN ONLY, IF YOU HAVE MEASURED YOUR AMP AND KNOW IT TO BE COMPLETELY STABLE (which a lot of commercial amps are'nt BTW) you can uprate the fuse. On the old WAD forum, one of the moderators suggested changing the 1.6A fuse for a 5A fuse. The resident hugely experienced E/E went mad and said all those who tried this were crazy. Well not one person who tried this had their amp blow because no one tried this who could'nt demonstrate to themselves that their amp was stable.

 

Everyone who tried this remarked on the improved sound of their amps. Again I must stress that if you don't have the ability to judge/measure the stability of your amp - DO NOT TRY.

 

The less fuses you have in your system the better. I have suggested to UKers that they ditch their UK plugs and buy a Shuko dis. block and Shuko plugs. I have never heard of mainlanders blowing up their equipment because they don't have plugs individually fused and I have been living on the mainland for 10 years now. If proper mains spike protection is built into your dis. block, there will be  no problem. Whilst looking for land to build our home we rent an old house and I cannot believe the size of French fuses in the consumer panel - they are enormous and they are not cheap but because they are enormous they have less detrimental effect than the much smaller UK fuses. When I build my home I will use a consumer panel that use circuit breakers, no question of that.

 

Before I knew better I wasted £150 on a LAT International UK dis. block (anyone want to make me a reasonable offer for it?). When I moved to Spain I bought from Lidls a Shuko dis. block with built in spike protection for around €7. All metal contacts are bare copper (which I protect with de-oxit) and not nickel plated (bad news).

 

Are the Furutech fuses better than bog standard ones - yes, are they over priced yes but so are the Furutech and WBT plugs as well. Engineering is engineering if you want to pay for the name (like Nike) fine - I don't. I can't make those Rhodium fuses, so when I buy my PH32 power amp I will shell out for another Rhodium fuse. There are plenty of alternative plugs that are far cheaper  to buy that use exactly the same design and materials as Furutech/WBT - if anyone knows of a cheap copy of the Furutech fuses let me know - I will buy.

 

 

post #164 of 234

The skeptic in me still wants to call BS on these fuses, even after reading this entire thread twice.  I'm really curious though if they WOULD make an improvement in my system.  I have one fuse each in the Monarchy DIP, OMZ DAC, and Woo 3+...which one would make the biggest difference if replaced?  I'm guessing the Woo.  Would anyone care to go out on a limb and trust me with lending me one for a few days, just so I can prove/disprove to myself that these are of any benefit?  I'll ship it right back to you, I promise.  Anyway, if a kind soul out there would be willing, please send me a PM. Thanks!


Edited by Golden Monkey - 10/14/10 at 8:43am
post #165 of 234

Golden Monkey,

seeing how many fell for example - the Sondek b/s - upgrades called Nirvana and Valhalla in the 70s' and don't forget the Belt b/s these and many more made me into a total skeptic on everything hi-fi and it was'nt until the mid 90s' that I started shelling out for 'better' i/cs and speaker cable but then the i/net came along and I found that I had been screwed for these as well.

 

I now make my own i/cs and am tackling the problematic construction of TT phono outs. The only way you are going to know if these 'special fuses' are b/s or not is to lay out for one. You have obviously read my previous post - take note that all those who diss these fuses have never tried one - they are talking from theory not practise - how pathetic. If you want to see if they are b/s or not use one first in your power amp.

 

I am still a skeptic in many areas of musical reproduction, filters are a classic no-no for me. Many waste IMO a lot of money on these, why, well a filter does just that - it interferes with the flow of electricity.

 

What does interest me are - balanced power supply units. These are used in every commercial studio. All they do is cancel out noise on the power supply, this can only be a good thing. What I want to know is can a spike filter be fitted into the power companies line before the BPS unit - is this worthwhile. More importantly if circuit breakers are used in the consumer supply unit, are they even nec?

 

You can spend a fortune for  BPS units or be smart and buy a no name one - I am going to buy a no name one made in the UK with Shuko sockets @ approx. £150 + shipping to the mainland. One of these and maybe thermal breakers are the way to go but until then I will use the Rhodium fuses.

 

I repeat, disregard all those who talk from theory - unless something costs a lot of money - empirical research is the only way to go.

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