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does Sansa CLIP have a true line out? - Page 3

post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by forsberg View Post


There's an option in ReplayGain to do album gain instead of track gain. If you listen to an entire album, do album gain - which allows for tracks that are supposed to be quieter to be quieter. If you listen to tracks from different albums, do track gain.


Thanks! I wasn't aware of this option! I wonder... does that screw with bit-depth? Apparently one loses a bit every -6 decibels. Furthermore, does anyone know if utilizing a precut loses bit-depth? My precut is currently set at -6.

post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Atrocity View Post



Thanks! I wasn't aware of this option! I wonder... does that screw with bit-depth? Apparently one loses a bit every -6 decibels. Furthermore, does anyone know if utilizing a precut loses bit-depth? My precut is currently set at -6.

I'm not sure. I don't think so - but perhaps others can chime in.

Either way though, you won't hear a difference so don't worry about it.
post #33 of 54

When using a stock Clip+ with an additional headphone amp, where should the volume be set on the Clip+ for best SQ? From what I understand from posts on this thread and a few others it sounds like the stock Clip+ should have the volume set to max, so as to not choke any bits. It would be great to get a direct and clear answer to this question.

 

The setup in regards to this question would be: Sansa Clip+ ---> Headroom Micro Amp ---> Senn HD650

post #34 of 54

0 db. The digital V control may alter bits up or down from there. How successful it is at other volume levels will have to do with how the V control is configured. You can have dig V that doesn't lose anything but generally not in this price range. Think of the amp as a constant gain block that responds in a linear fashion to the input from a DAC preamp stage, may help to conceptualize. All that said, if you can't hear a difference, than there's no reason to worry about it.


Edited by goodvibes - 1/22/12 at 6:27pm
post #35 of 54

Thanks for the quick reply goodvibes! I appreciate the information, and yes, it did help conceptually with the issue.

 

However, I'm still in the same position because I'm not sure where 0dB would be on the volume control for the Sansa Clip+. Apologies if that's because I'm an idiot.

 

Apparently when using rockbox the volume controls gives a readout of the current dB, however the stock firmware volume control does not  show the dB level, its simply a bar-type graphic.

 

I have the stock firmware and don't have any desire to switch to rockbox. If I need rockbox to get an accruate readout of the dB level I might consider using it, but I would prefer to continue using the stock firmware for now.

 

My assumption, based on the replies in this thread, is that on the stock Clip+ 0dB is at full/max volume. Correct?

 

post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklandrkg View Post

Thanks for the quick reply goodvibes! I appreciate the information, and yes, it did help conceptually with the issue.

 

However, I'm still in the same position because I'm not sure where 0dB would be on the volume control for the Sansa Clip+. Apologies if that's because I'm an idiot.

 

Apparently when using rockbox the volume controls gives a readout of the current dB, however the stock firmware volume control does not  show the dB level, its simply a bar-type graphic.

 

I have the stock firmware and don't have any desire to switch to rockbox. If I need rockbox to get an accruate readout of the dB level I might consider using it, but I would prefer to continue using the stock firmware for now.

 

My assumption, based on the replies in this thread, is that on the stock Clip+ 0dB is at full/max volume. Correct?

 



Without Rockbox, just use max volume and be sure the EQ is set to "Normal" and you should be fine.

post #37 of 54


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post

The Clip players use digital volume attenuation to adjust the volume. I think the voltage output is always the same (I could be wrong there) and volume is instead adjusted by decreasing the volume of the digital files before they're converted to an analog signal. What this means is that adjusting the volume below 0 dBFS (the maximum digital volume) costs you bit depth. Every -6 dB loses a bit. Doesn't mean anything for normal use, just that the noise floor will be higher relative to the signal (because the noise floor is constant at a maximum -96 dB for 16 bit files).

 

When you amp the Clip's signal with an external amp that has an analog volume knob, it's usually a good idea to set the digital volume to 0 dBFS so you get the lowest possible noise floor. Don't set it above 0 dBFS because that is the maximum volume a digital file can be and any higher may (in the case of most modern songs, will) cause clipping. Analog volume attenuation is usually superior, because it lowers the noise too. However, some amps might have a problem with channel balance at low volume settings, which is arguably much more audible than a higher noise floor. If one ear is louder than the other at low volumes but not at higher volumes, lower the Clip's volume too.

 

Impedance is only one concern when determining how much a headphone needs an amp. Sensitivity is just as important. Ignoring volume, low impedance headphones will benefit most from a high quality amp, because amps tend to perform worse into low impedance loads.



Unless I'm totally missing some key piece of information, this explanation is entirely wrong.  The "digital volume control" on the Clip+ (and Fiio E7, etc., etc.) is actually a digitally controlled stepped attenuator, which is an assortment of resistors of increasing value - basically a potentiometer with discrete steps.  No reduction in quality when turning down the volume, and you actually get better performance than a traditional potentiometer.

 

When turning Rockbox past 0 dB, it's actually boosting the volume digitally - which can mean clipping for any wave peaks near 0 dB already.

post #38 of 54

Awesome. Thanks man!

 

That's what I've had it at all along, but it's that much better to get some confirmation on proper procedure.

 

Actually, I took me two nights to realize that my EQ was on a custom setting, not normal, and I was close to scrapping my plans to use the Clip+.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post



Without Rockbox, just use max volume and be sure the EQ is set to "Normal" and you should be fine.


 

Thanks again for the replies to my questions. There is so much knowledge here; this is a great forum.

 


Edited by oaklandrkg - 1/22/12 at 9:49pm
post #39 of 54

Dang.

 

BlackbeardBen point was my original thought as well (I had the volume of my Clip+ set 1/2 way), but the following night I switched to full/max volume which is where it's been since. I then came on to head-fi thinking I should get some actual evidence on either way before I 'set it and forget', and what I understood from what I read it seemed that, yes, volume on max was the way to go.

 

Now I'm confused.

 

Any one else have thoughts on the subject? I'm very curious how the volume controller on this device is effecting the sound.

 

The next few nights coming up I'll give both options a shot and try to find the answer the old fashioned way AKA via my ears.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackbeardBen View Post


 



Unless I'm totally missing some key piece of information, this explanation is entirely wrong.  The "digital volume control" on the Clip+ (and Fiio E7, etc., etc.) is actually a digitally controlled stepped attenuator, which is an assortment of resistors of increasing value - basically a potentiometer with discrete steps.  No reduction in quality when turning down the volume, and you actually get better performance than a traditional potentiometer.

 

When turning Rockbox past 0 dB, it's actually boosting the volume digitally - which can mean clipping for any wave peaks near 0 dB already.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post

The Clip players use digital volume attenuation to adjust the volume. I think the voltage output is always the same (I could be wrong there) and volume is instead adjusted by decreasing the volume of the digital files before they're converted to an analog signal. What this means is that adjusting the volume below 0 dBFS (the maximum digital volume) costs you bit depth. Every -6 dB loses a bit. Doesn't mean anything for normal use, just that the noise floor will be higher relative to the signal (because the noise floor is constant at a maximum -96 dB for 16 bit files).

 

When you amp the Clip's signal with an external amp that has an analog volume knob, it's usually a good idea to set the digital volume to 0 dBFS so you get the lowest possible noise floor. Don't set it above 0 dBFS because that is the maximum volume a digital file can be and any higher may (in the case of most modern songs, will) cause clipping. Analog volume attenuation is usually superior, because it lowers the noise too. However, some amps might have a problem with channel balance at low volume settings, which is arguably much more audible than a higher noise floor. If one ear is louder than the other at low volumes but not at higher volumes, lower the Clip's volume too.

 

Impedance is only one concern when determining how much a headphone needs an amp. Sensitivity is just as important. Ignoring volume, low impedance headphones will benefit most from a high quality amp, because amps tend to perform worse into low impedance loads.



 

post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklandrkg View Post

Dang.

 

BlackbeardBen point was my original thought as well (I had the volume of my Clip+ set 1/2 way), but the following night I switched to full/max volume which is where it's been since. I then came on to head-fi thinking I should get some actual evidence on either way before I 'set it and forget', and what I understood from what I read it seemed that, yes, volume on max was the way to go.

 

Now I'm confused.

 

Any one else have thoughts on the subject? I'm very curious how the volume controller on this device is effecting the sound.

 

The next few nights coming up I'll give both options a shot and try to find the answer the old fashioned way AKA via my ears.

 

 

The safe thing to do (in case I am wrong) is to leave it at max volume (or 0 dB on Rockbox) - it can't hurt to do that.  It's what I do when I amp it, which is most of the time.

 

For something that is going to be as subtle as this I really wouldn't "trust your ears" necessarily.  It's easy for our minds to deceive us.

post #41 of 54

I've been hoping someone can step up and confirm with confidence what Blackbeardben is saying here with the explanation in tow.

 

Either way I'd like to say thanks to Blackbeardben for responding with his thoughts and experiences on the matter.

 

This last week I've spent a lot of time listening to the Clip+ (attached to my Headroom Micro Amp) with both HD-650's and Dennon AH-D2000's, and I do believe the optimal sound is with the Clip+ volume set to max. However, like blackbeardben said, 'trusting our ears' is not a concept many of us head-fiers take to easily.

 

Thanks again to blackbeardben and to any responses I hopefully might be getting as well.

 

RKG

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackbeardBen View Post

 

The safe thing to do (in case I am wrong) is to leave it at max volume (or 0 dB on Rockbox) - it can't hurt to do that.  It's what I do when I amp it, which is most of the time.

 

For something that is going to be as subtle as this I really wouldn't "trust your ears" necessarily.  It's easy for our minds to deceive us.



 

post #42 of 54

I'm using a Sansa Clip+ (Rockbox) with  Fiio E11.  0db appears the perfect volume limit to mimic a line out for me. Anything over 0db I get massive amounts of clipping. I know this because it's easy to bump the volume control up a notch when plugging in/out the charger, I have the 0db down pat and it's working pretty well. What I want to know if there's any other settings I can adjust that will help me imitate a line out more so? I know rockbox has tons of functions but using just ear as judgment sometimes isn't enough. I've heard the "prevent clipping" can help but I found it to lower the output a little. What I'm looking for is other people that have paired up the Clip with an amp and which settings they find works for them.


Edited by H20Fidelity - 3/18/12 at 3:13am
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20Fidelity View Post

I'm using a Sansa Clip+ (Rockbox) with  Fiio E11.  0db appears the perfect volume limit to mimic a line out for me. Anything over 0db I get massive amounts of clipping. I know this because it's easy to bump the volume control up a notch when plugging in/out the charger, I have the 0db down pat and it's working pretty well. What I want to know if there's any other settings I can adjust that will help me imitate a line out more so? I know rockbox has tons of functions but using just ear as judgment sometimes isn't enough. I've heard the "prevent clipping" can help but I found it to lower the output a little. What I'm looking for is other people that have paired up the Clip with an amp and which settings they find works for them.



I always enable prevent clipping and ReplayGain to an 89db level. Then the 0db seems just right for use with an amp.  You say the "prevent clipping" seemed to lower the output a little....well, isn't that the whole idea? wink.gif Besides, you have the amp to increase your output, right? L3000.gif

post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post



I always enable prevent clipping and ReplayGain to an 89db level. Then the 0db seems just right for use with an amp.  You say the "prevent clipping" seemed to lower the output a little....well, isn't that the whole idea? wink.gif Besides, you have the amp to increase your output, right? L3000.gif



Thanks for the reply.

You have made a good point about the prevent clipping function, I shall experiement with this later this evening. And you're right the amp is my volume! I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one out there pairing up this excellent player. I totally love it, from the size to the sound. 

Cheers!

post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post



I always enable prevent clipping and ReplayGain to an 89db level. Then the 0db seems just right for use with an amp.  You say the "prevent clipping" seemed to lower the output a little....well, isn't that the whole idea? wink.gif Besides, you have the amp to increase your output, right? L3000.gif



Hi Achmedisdead, does these setting applies to the clip zip? Currently on OF and my  ReplayGain enabled and set to 0db. Is this setting too low and a higher db is more desirable? Thanks

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