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The Beyerdynamic DT48 Arrives... - Page 232

post #3466 of 3815

Sorry, this wasn't meant to you, but for users complaining in general about a bass roll off (provided they can get a good seal of course).

post #3467 of 3815
bass is one thing most people don't understand what sounds ''right'' or not. people assume a headphone has to have that forceful ''impact'' but that forceful impact with headphones is mostly mid-bass hump but if the headphone is flat down to the sub-bass, impact should only be ''noticed'' at 50hz range and below. 30hz is actually where the known ''chest thump/rumble'' should be felt at. even on headphones the rumble should not be felt till below 50hz area but is highly misconception cause people expect headphones to sound like speakers and assume a headphone with flat bass to sub-bass are bass light due to them being use to accentuated bass and artificial impact. of course if the headphone has a flat bass to sub-bass response it will present the ''impact'' way it was meant to in the track/recording and if the song has boosted mid-bass(which most do and also have boosted bass range at 50hz and below to make up for bad compression and bad dynamics) the headphone will show it.

our hearing perception do play a big factor as well since our hearing naturally rolls off the lower and higher the frequency gets. that's why their is compensation curves like the loudness curve and special controlled equalization processes like ''free-field'' and ''diffused-field'' equalizing. even speakers are free-field and diffused-field equalized, but speakers are usually tested most likely in a anechoic chamber for a flat response curve. with speakers it's harder due to your room,speaker placement,and listening distance/position. rooms though are usually the biggest fault with speakers and most people don't care and just rather spend more money on fancy colored amps and speakers with complex crossover designs and don't realize ''less can mean more''.
post #3468 of 3815

While this is a technically accurate explanation of natural, neutral bass and how it functions, it doesn't change the fact that contemporary music wasn't designed to be listened to on a completely neutral system or in an anechoic chamber.  Life doesn't happen in an anechoic chamber, and neither do musical performances (dance clubs, live rock shows, etc.).  You could argue that classical music attempts to find rooms with the best possible acoustics, but when you go to see a symphony live, there is incredible depth and impact from the bassy instruments that you simply don't get with the DT48, even with a good seal.

 

I am not trying to say that you shouldn't enjoy music on them--I encourage you to listen to whatever music you want on whatever gear you enjoy, but the indignation of the people on this thread is a bit bizarre.  Just because the DT48 was the first dynamic headphone doesn't make it the best--just the oldest.  I would much rather drive my car than the first production automobile.  Having a completely flat response line on a technical level doesn't mean that you are hearing music as it was meant to be heard, unless it was specifically mixed on the DT48 with the express purpose of being played back on the DT48, which is highly unlikely.

 

While the DT48 might be a great tool to test whether bass is emphasized in a recording, that doesn't mean that it will be an enjoyable listening experience for the vast majority of headphone listeners.

post #3469 of 3815

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4uIvWVwRMU

Here's a good test track for low bass. Starting around 50 sec into the song, there's some descending bass notes that go pretty low. If anyone wants to compare the dt48 with their other phones and/or speakers,  I think it's a good test track, even though it's only youtube audio. Anyone want to try it? Acix, do you still have your dt48S to compare to the 702? 240DF lovers?

post #3470 of 3815

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelpearce View Post

While this is a technically accurate explanation of natural, neutral bass and how it functions, it doesn't change the fact that contemporary music wasn't designed to be listened to on a completely neutral system or in an anechoic chamber.  Life doesn't happen in an anechoic chamber, and neither do musical performances (dance clubs, live rock shows, etc.).  You could argue that classical music attempts to find rooms with the best possible acoustics, but when you go to see a symphony live, there is incredible depth and impact from the bassy instruments that you simply don't get with the DT48, even with a good seal.

 

I am not trying to say that you shouldn't enjoy music on them--I encourage you to listen to whatever music you want on whatever gear you enjoy, but the indignation of the people on this thread is a bit bizarre.  Just because the DT48 was the first dynamic headphone doesn't make it the best--just the oldest.  I would much rather drive my car than the first production automobile.  Having a completely flat response line on a technical level doesn't mean that you are hearing music as it was meant to be heard, unless it was specifically mixed on the DT48 with the express purpose of being played back on the DT48, which is highly unlikely.

 

While the DT48 might be a great tool to test whether bass is emphasized in a recording, that doesn't mean that it will be an enjoyable listening experience for the vast majority of headphone listeners.

Agreed...

 

For testing bass I prefer the HD250 II though. I think of the DT48's I have more as detail headphones.
 

 

post #3471 of 3815

Other factors like mics distance/placement will influence the tonal balance of the recording.

 

I agree with the first part but not so much with the second part.

 

Equalization for headphones is more related IMO with spatial location/dimension (through the ratio of direct/reflected sound) than bass response. Just look at the FF and DF theorical frequency response, and you can easily notice both are the same from 10Hz to about 1000Hz.

 

However, you have a good point regarding the loudness curves, and this is why I always recommend the DT48 for moderate/realistic volume levels... Listening at average 60/70dB SPL with the DT48 is certainly going to be a disappointing experience...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RexAeterna View Post

bass is one thing most people don't understand what sounds ''right'' or not. people assume a headphone has to have that forceful ''impact'' but that forceful impact with headphones is mostly mid-bass hump but if the headphone is flat down to the sub-bass, impact should only be ''noticed'' at 50hz range and below. 30hz is actually where the known ''chest thump/rumble'' should be felt at. even on headphones the rumble should not be felt till below 50hz area but is highly misconception cause people expect headphones to sound like speakers and assume a headphone with flat bass to sub-bass are bass light due to them being use to accentuated bass and artificial impact. of course if the headphone has a flat bass to sub-bass response it will present the ''impact'' way it was meant to in the track/recording and if the song has boosted mid-bass(which most do and also have boosted bass range at 50hz and below to make up for bad compression and bad dynamics) the headphone will show it.

our hearing perception do play a big factor as well since our hearing naturally rolls off the lower and higher the frequency gets. that's why their is compensation curves like the loudness curve and special controlled equalization processes like ''free-field'' and ''diffused-field'' equalizing. even speakers are free-field and diffused-field equalized, but speakers are usually tested most likely in a anechoic chamber for a flat response curve. with speakers it's harder due to your room,speaker placement,and listening distance/position. rooms though are usually the biggest fault with speakers and most people don't care and just rather spend more money on fancy colored amps and speakers with complex crossover designs and don't realize ''less can mean more''.



 


Edited by shamu144 - 2/15/12 at 1:39am
post #3472 of 3815

Indeed, it is difficult for me to imagine a headphone with better bass response than the HD250 II (deeeep, accurate, detailed, powerfull, tunefull, etc....).... But again, the difference with the DT48 only shows up at 70Hz and below. And since overall performance accounts more for me than just the sum of the parts, I still favor the DT48 over the HD250 II, even on energetic Rock/Pop music.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Funk View Post

 

For testing bass I prefer the HD250 II though. I think of the DT48's I have more as detail headphones.



 

post #3473 of 3815

Well at least you guys agree on some aspects, a great detailed pair of cans, much like a proper bookshelf setup, Nice inputs y'all, this is what this thread is about, it was getting kinda quiet here popcorn.gif 

Just recently got my K340, nice highs but not as fast and accurate, Bass is well inflated, but punchy and not messy. Compared to the DT48, the K340 is still slower and warm fuzzy, not great on the mids as well, sounds very close to the IE80 signature. I tested and compared both on the duplex output of the BCL, with the DT48S using the 120Ω adapter so they won't have much difference is decibels. Orchestral pieces still sounded realistic on the DT48 rather than the K340. It does come to mind that the K340 is the predecessor of Bassy cans.basshead.gif

 

On electronic music, the DT48 is really good and it does surprise, you can actually hear all the extra details in the mix, in almost all my other cans, they couldn't even produce a whim of those. Bass detail is also fantastic.

post #3474 of 3815

These are an interesting pair of phones. Not so much because of their sound (haven't heard them), but because of the disagreement between measured graphs and listener perception regarding the neutralness of the mids.

 

If you look at two points on Tyll's graph, 500 Hz and 2300 Hz, you see that they're way off in relation to each other. Those two points, roughly, define the speech sound /e/ (as in "wet"). As such, on Tyll's setup, I don't see how the word wet would be rendered neutrally given that graph.

 

Yet, at the same time, many experienced people seem to find the DT 48 neutral. It's interesting.

 

(Tyll's DT 48 graph, as far as mids go, looks quite similar to the graph I measured off my AKG K 160. Same kind of mid hump. The vocals on that thing sound quite pleasing, but as if coming from behind a curtain.)

post #3475 of 3815
Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post

These are an interesting pair of phones. Not so much because of their sound (haven't heard them), but because of the disagreement between measured graphs and listener perception regarding the neutralness of the mids.

 

If you look at two points on Tyll's graph, 500 Hz and 2300 Hz, you see that they're way off in relation to each other. Those two points, roughly, define the speech sound /e/ (as in "wet"). As such, on Tyll's setup, I don't see how the word wet would be rendered neutrally given that graph.

 

Yet, at the same time, many experienced people seem to find the DT 48 neutral. It's interesting.

 

(Tyll's DT 48 graph, as far as mids go, looks quite similar to the graph I measured off my AKG K 160. Same kind of mid hump. The vocals on that thing sound quite pleasing, but as if coming from behind a curtain.)

The vocals on the DT48 does not seem to have  any distance from your ears. 
 

 

post #3476 of 3815

The presentation on the DT 48 is probably pretty unique. And if what people say about their  level of detail is true, very impressive.

 

An easy way to test if one's 48 is as as strange as what Tyll measured is to create two sine waves, one at 500 Hz and one at 2000 Hz. Queue them up in your playlist, put your 48 on and see if you can spot a difference in volume between the two tones. On Tyll's pair the difference should be quite noticeable.

 

If you're into that sort of thing, get yourself a sawtooth wave at 100-200 Hz, then load up an EQ. The Wiki page here lists some vowel frequencies in speech – if you punch up those frequencies in your EQ, your sawtooth wave will come to roughly resemble that sound. For /e/, for instance, it would be 500 and 2300 Hz. You can then adjust the amount of EQ you give each neighborhood of frequencies to hear the sound more or less colored (in relation to how your headphones/speakers play them).

 

If you're really interested, you can generate tone pairs (as mentioned in the second paragraph) for each of the vowels listed on that site and see if you can hear a difference between them. If you can't, you're probably getting relatively decent vowels out of your phones.


Edited by vid - 2/15/12 at 11:51am
post #3477 of 3815

IMO, sure the DT48 could have better extension and impact.  

 

Everything from about 70hz up sounds incredible on them, and I personally can sacrifice my bass for that and its worth it. Try EQing the bass on the DT48, it ruins the midrange IMO. The midrange is the most important part of the music, and the DT48 excels at this. If I have to make sacrifices (everyone does), the bass and treble are the first to go. Call me crazy or a midrange freak... Just my preferences...

post #3478 of 3815

Another thing I noticed is the bass response seems to improve a little if you have a quiet room. This goes for any headphone...

post #3479 of 3815
Quote:
Originally Posted by EYEdROP View Post

IMO, sure the DT48 could have better extension and impact.  

 

Everything from about 70hz up sounds incredible on them, and I personally can sacrifice my bass for that and its worth it. Try EQing the bass on the DT48, it ruins the midrange IMO. The midrange is the most important part of the music, and the DT48 excels at this. If I have to make sacrifices (everyone does), the bass and treble are the first to go. Call me crazy or a midrange freak... Just my preferences...


Probably most dt48 users are mainly focused on the midrange. They're definitely not the first choice for bass heads, I don't think. They excel at vocals and a lot of acoustic genres that don't contain much low bass. A lot of classic rock also isn't very bass centric, or at least doesn't emphasize the lower bass like a lot of modern genres do.

post #3480 of 3815


Quote:

Originally Posted by vid View Post

These are an interesting pair of phones. Not so much because of their sound (haven't heard them), but because of the disagreement between measured graphs and listener perception regarding the neutralness of the mids.

 

If you look at two points on Tyll's graph, 500 Hz and 2300 Hz, you see that they're way off in relation to each other. Those two points, roughly, define the speech sound /e/ (as in "wet"). As such, on Tyll's setup, I don't see how the word wet would be rendered neutrally given that graph.

 

Yet, at the same time, many experienced people seem to find the DT 48 neutral. It's interesting.

 

(Tyll's DT 48 graph, as far as mids go, looks quite similar to the graph I measured off my AKG K 160. Same kind of mid hump. The vocals on that thing sound quite pleasing, but as if coming from behind a curtain.)

Do you have a link to that graph of the dt48?  I was just listening to Sinatra and switching from the hd580 to the dt48, I preferred the dt48 by a fair margin. The dt48 sounds closer to the way I remember the 240DF sounding. Unfortunately I've never heard Sinatra live, so I can't say which is more true to life... Vocals definitely not coming from behind a curtain with the dt48....more, as someone else wrote, 'like getting a direct mic feed in the control room'.

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