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Long awaited Smyth SVS Realiser NOW AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE - Page 140

post #2086 of 2713
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by darinf View Post

 

Right now, I am waiting for delivery of a little connector that allows me to access the optical audio input on my PC motherboard. Once I get that I will be able to record the digital output of the Realiser.

 

What brand/model motherboard is that, which has an optical audio INPUT connector?  What is the onboard audio hardware?

 

I have an optical audio OUTPUT on my ASUS P5Q3, and I'm sure this is fairly standard for many boards which have Realtek HD Audio onboard chips.  But I wasn't aware of optical audio INPUT, though you're saying your motherboard has that.

post #2087 of 2713
Thanks Darinf, will check out the link.

As for extracting the binaural mix, you can't just plug the optical out of the realiser to the optical input of a mac computer for example?

Along these line, it would be convenient if there was a way to export the filter banks (head tracking disabled) in a standard filter plugin format so that one could use a software based virtualization (Music+ supports multichannel custom filters if I recall correctly). It's not quite portable (as in using an idevice for example) but already a good step toward transportable use (such office 2.0 virtual rig...).

My understanding though is that there is no SVS specific technology there apart from the PRIR and HPEQ extraction method (you can't patent time domain (convolution based) HRTF filtering...) and I am not even sure the PRIR stuff is proprietary because it's basically a succession of impulse response measurements. So, not sure how SVS could go about it without shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe the only way is for them to create a custom software based playback tool that will only accept prioprietary format (e.g. the actual PRIRs and HPEQ files). Otherwise, someone who does not care for head tracking would really only need to pay for PRIR and HPEQ measurement (studio fee), walk away with the convolution filters (in standard plug in format), and enjoy say 90% of the realiser quality for a fifth of the price or something...
post #2088 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsperber View Post

 

What brand/model motherboard is that, which has an optical audio INPUT connector?  What is the onboard audio hardware?

 

I have an optical audio OUTPUT on my ASUS P5Q3, and I'm sure this is fairly standard for many boards which have Realtek HD Audio onboard chips.  But I wasn't aware of optical audio INPUT, though you're saying your motherboard has that.

Your motherboard does not seem to have an optical input.


I have a fairly old Gigabyte motherboard:

http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3305#sp

If you look at the audio specs, it says:

"Support for S/PDIF In/Out"

 

But I could not find any mention of where to connect the optical input.

 

Then I found a 3 pin header on the motherboard in the manual that says "S/PDIF IN".

 

So then I had to order one of these. I am told that the adapter will work for either the input header or the output header. We'll see if it works. It takes forever to get here from Australia.

 

You could just buy a sound card with optical input like this one. I have no idea if it works, but I may try it if the cable I bought doesn't work.

post #2089 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaud View Post

Thanks Darinf, will check out the link.
As for extracting the binaural mix, you can't just plug the optical out of the realiser to the optical input of a mac computer for example?
 

If I had a Mac, I guess that should work... I have PC's which typically don't have optical inputs.

 

Quote:
Along these line, it would be convenient if there was a way to export the filter banks (head tracking disabled) in a standard filter plugin format so that one could use a software based virtualization (Music+ supports multichannel custom filters if I recall correctly). It's not quite portable (as in using an idevice for example) but already a good step toward transportable use (such office 2.0 virtual rig...).
My understanding though is that there is no SVS specific technology there apart from the PRIR and HPEQ extraction method (you can't patent time domain (convolution based) HRTF filtering...) and I am not even sure the PRIR stuff is proprietary because it's basically a succession of impulse response measurements. So, not sure how SVS could go about it without shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe the only way is for them to create a custom software based playback tool that will only accept prioprietary format (e.g. the actual PRIRs and HPEQ files). Otherwise, someone who does not care for head tracking would really only need to pay for PRIR and HPEQ measurement (studio fee), walk away with the convolution filters (in standard plug in format), and enjoy say 90% of the realiser quality for a fifth of the price or something...

Have you checked out all the information that Jurgen (Jlejle) has posted to the PRIR exchange thread and the Dropbox folder? I don't pretend to understand half of what he says, but I think by analyzing the impulse response of the Realiser with a given PRIR loaded, he is able to reproduce the sound using PC software and plug-ins.

 

What I can't figure out is if it's real-time. I tried once but could not figure it out. But I think the idea is that in say FooBar, you can load the appropriate plug-ins and then apply the settings from the files Jurgen is posting. Once done, you essentially have a PRIR playback method without needing a Realiser. I need to investigate further.

 

Jurgen is German and I think a lot of what he is saying gets lost in the translation to English.

post #2090 of 2713
Cool, I'll check the posts darinf. Sounds totally possible (extracting the realiser's out/in transfer function or impulse response in order to recover the PRIR and possibly combined with HPEQ correction in a standard format). Again optical in / out would let get a pretty clean result (no unnecessary D/A A/D). Main benefit is that, for computer use, you indeed could then just convolve on the fly instead of having to duplicate the whole library into personalised binaural format. Imagine when you want to try a different headphone / speaker...

Humm, that 's a brilliant idea actually!
post #2091 of 2713

When I had my PRIR at AIX, Lorr hinted at the possibility of an ipad app to replace the hardware for portable use.  It would work with your PRIR.  Not sure of any details beyond that.  I think it would be great to be able to listen to anything on an ipad or iphone with the virtualization.  I have captured the optical out through an rem fireface ucx audio interface and made files to use on my iphone with iems.  Sounds pretty good. Although, if you are walking around, it can be a bit bizarre.  If you are standing or sitting in one place on a train or plane, it is very cool indeed!

post #2092 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsilvio View Post

When I had my PRIR at AIX, Lorr hinted at the possibility of an ipad app to replace the hardware for portable use.  It would work with your PRIR.  Not sure of any details beyond that.  I think it would be great to be able to listen to anything on an ipad or iphone with the virtualization.  I have captured the optical out through an rem fireface ucx audio interface and made files to use on my iphone with iems.  Sounds pretty good. Although, if you are walking around, it can be a bit bizarre.  If you are standing or sitting in one place on a train or plane, it is very cool indeed!


that would be totally awesome.

post #2093 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jand View Post

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help and explaination.  That really is unfortunate there aren't any receivers that can decode and output lpcm 5.1+ via HDMI, but I guess it does make sense that very few people would ever be interested in that capability.  What I'm thinking, after doing a little digging, is that apparently the PS3 is capable of decoding all the Dolby and DTS formats and outputting lpcm over its HDMI, so I'm going to try going with an HDMI splitter to output the signal to my realiser and my TV.  I wouldn't be surprised to run into some handshake issues but hopefully I'll be able to get the PS3 to keep outputting 5.1 or 7.1 lpcm even though the TV undoubtedly won't request that.  I could also try connecting the realiser directly to the PS3 and then using the HDMI output from the realiser to go to the TV.  I also have an optical output on the PS3 which I'll keep connected to my receiver for the encoded dolby/dts to use, and I really don't care about losing out on DTS-MA and the lossless formats since my speakers suck anyway.  For DVD-A discs, I could also use the PS3, I understand they're generally written so they have a regular 5.1 DVD video layer also on the disc, which I understand can only output in 2 channels at 24/96khz, unlike the 24/192 you could get from a full-fledged DVD-Audio player, but since the realiser only handles up to 24/96, that shouldn't be a loss anyway.  Or am I way off base on this whole plan?

Unfortunately it sounds like I'm stuck in regards the Xbox360, it doesn't appear to be capable of performing DD/DTS decoding, so in that case there doesn't seem to be any way around finding a receiver with preamp analog outputs.  It seems on the internet there are some solutions for passing the Xbox bitstream signal to a PC to decode the DD/DTS and then output LPCM that way, I may have to explore that a bit more.  I know there's a few sound cards out there for under $100 that can decode DD/DTS and then have analog outputs, and my PC definitely does have HDMI output.  Building a small HTPC might be a solution as a sort of DIY receiver designed solely to pass LPCM output, but at this point I need to do a lot more research -- anyone's knowledge/experience around that would be greatly appreciated. 

 Does the PS3 send LPCM out via HDMI? Did this work with the Smyth?

 

-Daniel

post #2094 of 2713

It does indeed output LPCM via HDMI, but I haven't been able to try it with the Realiser yet as I haven't gotten mine just yet.  I'm more worried about the handshake issues with passing the signal to the Realiser via HDMI, and then from the Realiser to the TV.  Hopefully powering up the Realiser before the TV will help, but it sounds like it can be very touchy. 

post #2095 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


Hi Stewart,

 

I actually do this all the time so I can have my Realiser sound but portable.

 

Right now, I am waiting for delivery of a little connector that allows me to access the optical audio input on my PC motherboard. Once I get that I will be able to record the digital output of the Realiser.

 

So for now, I just record the analog "phones" output from the back of the Realiser and feed that into a portable digital audio recorder I have, Tascam DR40. Yes, it's a bummer that the Realiser goes from D to A and then the recorder has to go from A back to D. But the sound quality is actually pretty good. You could also connect the analog Realiser output to the analog audio input of your computer and just record it that way. (I tried that, but the sound quality of my motherboard analog audio sounded terrible.) You could just get an add-on sound card for your desktop computer. If you are on a laptop only, then you will need some way to get optical input to your laptop.

 

I am not aware of an optical audio to USB converter/adapter. There are USB sound cards for laptops that might have optical audio inputs. You could probably find on locally at Fry's or online at Amazon. Buying locally might be easier so you can figure out if it works first and take it back if it doesn't.

 

I load the Realiser output WAV files into my Sansa Clip+ and then listen with my modified Koss PortaPro headphones.  For a super light, portable setup, it sounds great and the Realiser sound works.

 

A couple of issues. Once you record an album, for example, you have one big audio file that no longer has song information. So it does take some work to slice up the file into individual songs and then name them to make sense. I use this software with pretty good results: http://www.nch.com.au/splitter/index.html. It will split the files based on the sound. So I just set the threshold down all the way and it usually only finds the gaps between songs. But if you have music with some brief silence, that can also get sliced as a separate song.

 

Secondly, without head tracking, the Realiser virtual speakers sound strange when you are walking or running or lying down. It's hard for your brain to accept the effect since the speakers are moving around with your head. If you are sitting still, it works very well.

 

-Darin


Just an update...

 

I received my motherboard adapter cable and I realized I ordered the wrong thing! I ordered the output cable instead of the input cable. Oh well. Only $8 lost...)

 

Then I decided to find a USB solution instead so it would be a more generic way to get optical input into a computer.

 

I just received it and successfully recorded the optical digital output of the Realiser to my laptop hard drive using Audacity and this external USB sound card.

 

Here's the external USB audio card I bought. It's only $26.00 and free shipping if you have Amazon Prime.

 

Now I can use it with any of my PC's to get optical digital audio input via USB.

 

I also think this box will let me setup Jurgen's FooBar setup to allow Foobar to play back PRIR's without a Realiser. I will post in the other thread if I get that to work. It would be nice to use a $26 box as a Realiser playback option.

 

-Darin

post #2096 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaud View Post

Cool, I'll check the posts darinf. Sounds totally possible (extracting the realiser's out/in transfer function or impulse response in order to recover the PRIR and possibly combined with HPEQ correction in a standard format). Again optical in / out would let get a pretty clean result (no unnecessary D/A A/D). Main benefit is that, for computer use, you indeed could then just convolve on the fly instead of having to duplicate the whole library into personalised binaural format. Imagine when you want to try a different headphone / speaker...
Humm, that 's a brilliant idea actually!


FYI, I just finished trying to get FooBar2000 to play back a sample PRIR as per Jurgen's instructions. It works!!!

 

I have yet to compare it to the Realiser output, but through FooBar2000, it sounds pretty good! I am still trying to figure out the details, but I was able to load my Cello 3.0 PRIR and it works in real-time.

 

I need to figure out how to create a bunch of presets for each PRIR. (Edit: I just figured out how to set presets to change PRIR's. Now I can have as many presets as I want instead of just the 4 on the Realiser!)

 

This method also does not incorporate an HPEQ. (If I use IEM's, then the HPEQ isn't used anyway.)

 

So now, using my USB sound card, I can listen to any music on my laptop as if it was playing through the Realiser, but without bringing the Realiser with me. This is very exciting. For example, rather than buying a second Realiser to have at work or in the bedroom, you can just use a laptop of work computer to enjoy your Realiser sound!

 

Jurgen's instructions were pretty good, but it still took some figuring out to get it all working. (Thank you Jurgen, "Jlejle"!!!)

 

-Darin


Edited by darinf - 10/22/12 at 6:34pm
post #2097 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


Just an update...

 

I received my motherboard adapter cable and I realized I ordered the wrong thing! I ordered the output cable instead of the input cable. Oh well. Only $8 lost...)

 

Then I decided to find a USB solution instead so it would be a more generic way to get optical input into a computer.

 

I just received it and successfully recorded the optical digital output of the Realiser to my laptop hard drive using Audacity and this external USB sound card.

 

Here's the external USB audio card I bought. It's only $26.00 and free shipping if you have Amazon Prime.

 

Now I can use it with any of my PC's to get optical digital audio input via USB.

 

I also think this box will let me setup Jurgen's FooBar setup to allow Foobar to play back PRIR's without a Realiser. I will post in the other thread if I get that to work. It would be nice to use a $26 box as a Realiser playback option.

 

-Darin

This is really interesting!  I also ordered a connector.  I ordered a 12 foot long optical cable and an optical to mini-plug adapter.  I have a Mac, so I assume I will be able to take the Realiser signal off the optical output and input it to the optical input of the  Mac via the cable.  From then on it is a little unclear how to store the file on my computer and where to transfer it.  I have an ipod, but I imagine this will limit me to itunes rather than a Wav file.  It all gets very complicated for my aging brain.  The sansa unit you use is inexpensive, so I could give that a try.  I will redo my favorite PRIRs without the Stax HPEQ, since I will be listening with IEMs.  Hmmnnnn.... The idea of being able to take virtualized files around with me in my pocket appeals to me....

 

Stewart

post #2098 of 2713
Darinf, this is excellent news! Actually, it's also getting me motivated to measure my own hrtfs and try this binaural stuff (that may motivate for for a realiser later on if I feel it is worth it). I already have a rig to measure response, and the post-processing coded to extract impulse responses and create inverse filters so it's 75% done wink.gif.

One thing I did not get: why do you think the extract impulse response does not include HPEQ? The digital out should have the same fully processed result as the HP out except for the D/A part. That is unless you phsically disabled the HPEQ because of intended iem playback?
post #2099 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaud View Post

Darinf, this is excellent news! Actually, it's also getting me motivated to measure my own hrtfs and try this binaural stuff (that may motivate for for a realiser later on if I feel it is worth it). I already have a rig to measure response, and the post-processing coded to extract impulse responses and create inverse filters so it's 75% done wink.gif.
One thing I did not get: why do you think the extract impulse response does not include HPEQ? The digital out should have the same fully processed result as the HP out except for the D/A part. That is unless you phsically disabled the HPEQ because of intended iem playback?

Yes, this is interesting because even those who do not own a Realiser could listen to the output of the Realiser with other people's PRIR's. If you were never on planning on doing your own PRIR's, then you could still enjoy the library of other people's PRIRs and never have to buy a Realiser. Yes, you'd be missing out on accurate recreation of the speaker systems. You'd miss out on head tracking. I have also not figured out how to watch a 5.1 or 7.1 movie using VST plu-gins.

 

Arnaud, you are absolutely right. There's no reason why the HPEQ cannot be added to the playback. However, I am not sure how Jurgen is generating the impulse response WAV files. I assume he is generating them without any HPEQ to make them more generic. However, if an HPEQ is loaded then certainly the FooBar playback should incorporate the HPEQ. I need to find out from Jurgen how hard it is to generate the wav files. I think you might have to have an audio input board which supports 8 channels of audio. I could be wrong though. Doesn't make sense since the Realiser output is only two channels. So I think I can do it and generate the impulse response files myself with the Realiser.

 

-Darin


Edited by darinf - 10/22/12 at 10:23pm
post #2100 of 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

A couple of issues. Once you record an album, for example, you have one big audio file that no longer has song information. So it does take some work to slice up the file into individual songs and then name them to make sense. I use this software with pretty good results: http://www.nch.com.au/splitter/index.html. It will split the files based on the sound. So I just set the threshold down all the way and it usually only finds the gaps between songs. But if you have music with some brief silence, that can also get sliced as a separate song.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


FYI, I just finished trying to get FooBar2000 to play back a sample PRIR as per Jurgen's instructions. It works!!!

 

One great possibility that the FooBar PRIR playback gives us is the ability to output PRIR processed audio files MUCH easier than recording the output of the Realiser.

 

Once you have FooBar set up to duplicate the PRIR sound, then you can highlight a bunch of audio files and have FooBar convert them to FLAC or WAV or MP3, AND apply the DSP processing to the files before saving.

 

It's basically a Realiser converter. No need to record the Realiser output in real-time, slice the files apart, rename all the files, etc. I just point to a whole list of audio files and click "convert". After a bit of rendering, I end up with any PRIR applied to my audio files.

 

On my older laptop, the conversion process is averaging about 2X realtime.

 

Much easier than using an optical input and Audacity for recording.

 

-Darin

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