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Long awaited Smyth SVS Realiser NOW AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE - Page 136

post #2026 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirohh View Post

I got a beginners question. I just ordered a Realiser. How do connect the Realiser anolog to my av-reciever? Its a Denon 2312 and has only clamps at the analog speaker outputs. There are no cinch outputs.


First, the Realiser does not connect to the speaker outputs. The Realiser has either HDMI input or analog line level single ended signals.

 

So, there are different ways to hook it up depending on what you are doing.

 

To do a PRIR measurement of your system, you would connect the CH. 1 and 2 analog outputs of the Realiser to an analog input of your Denon. This way the Realiser can send the test signal/frequency sweeps out to your speakers to do the measurement.

 

For listening to music/movies through your Realiser and heaphones, in theory, you  hook it up this way:

 

Source (DVD/BluRay/etc) --> HDMI input on Denon --> HDMI input on Realiser --> HDMI input on monitor/projector, etc.

 

This way, whatever source you are watching will feed the audio through the Realiser.

 

However, often having that many devices in the HDMI chain is problematic. Most of the time, by the time HDMI has gone to a 4th device, the signal is compromised and you will get either no signal or static on your monitor.

 

Since your Denon only has one HMDI output, the only other way to avoid having 4 links in the chain is to use an HDMI splitter so you can split the output from your Denon into two outputs, one to your monitor and one to your Realiser. I know this still means 4 devices in the chain if you count the splitter, but depending on the splitter, it can still work.

 

I have successfully used a monoprice HDMI 4x2 matrix switcher as a splitter. But it's still not perfect. Sometimes I will have trouble getting the HDMI to get to my monitor properly. I sometimes have to change the power up sequence to get everything to work. Sometimes I have trouble getting my Realiser to request multi-channel PCM from the source in this set up also.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps more than confuses you more. ;-)

 

Let me know if you have specific questions. There are a LOT of potential issues with getting everything to work. Your source device is also very critical for getting multi-channel PCM audio into the Realiser via HDMI.

 

-Darin

 

P.S. I just re-read your question and you said connect via analog. Your Denon does note have analog multi-channel pre-amp outputs, so you can't connect the output of your denon to the Realiser via analog.


Edited by darinf - 10/7/12 at 10:43am
post #2027 of 2703

Thank you. That was what I feared. I was a bit quick ordering the Realiser, now I end up in having to buy a new reciever, e.g. a Yamaha A820. The Denon is just 6 month old. So the euros add up quiet fast. 

Are there any recomandations for an not too expensive av-reciever with analog pre amp output?

By the way, in Germany the recomended studio to  make the pirs cost 950€, that is about 1300$.

post #2028 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirohh View Post

Thank you. That was what I feared. I was a bit quick ordering the Realiser, now I end up in having to buy a new reciever, e.g. a Yamaha A820. The Denon is just 6 month old. So the euros add up quiet fast. 

Are there any recomandations for an not too expensive av-reciever with analog pre amp output?

By the way, in Germany the recomended studio to  make the pirs cost 950€, that is about 1300$.


You bought a non-HDMI Realiser, I assume?

 

You could buy an Oppo blu-ray with analog multi-channel outputs, or I have a Dune HD Max which also has analog outputs and plays just about any kind of file I can throw at it.

 

You also want to make sure that the receiver will actually decode the various surround formats and output them via the analog outputs. I think some devices with analog outputs may only output analog multi channel with LPCM source material. I am not 100% sure, but I think there can be licensing issues preventing the manufacturers from including decoding capabilities.

 

$1300USD for a PRIR measurement? Wow! I need to start a service like that for those prices. So far I have done all my PRIR measurements for free... I would think you could find someone willing to let you do a PRIR for a few hundred dollars.

post #2029 of 2703

Yes I bought a non-HDMI Realiser (new). My Denon 3800bd bluray player has 7.1 analog output but I want to use the reciever for bluray, TV and mediaplayer.

post #2030 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirohh View Post

Yes I bought a non-HDMI Realiser (new). My Denon 3800bd bluray player has 7.1 analog output but I want to use the reciever for bluray, TV and mediaplayer.


I did not know you could buy a non-HDMI Realiser new any more. I thought the Realiser price for HDMI or non-HDMI was the same since the HDMI version replaced the non-HDMI version.

 

Maybe I am mistaken since I did not know about the Realiser until after they had released the HDMI version. Was there a price increase when they released the HDMI version?

 

When I bought mine, there was no option. All the new ones had HDMI.

post #2031 of 2703

The Realiser was "old stock" at the retailer, so I got a very resonable price (abot 800€, that is about 1100$, cheaper). That money I can invest into a new av reciever. In Germany there is a saying, - if you buy cheap, you buy twice. By the way, I think analog outputs are necessary to make the PRIRs.

post #2032 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirohh View Post

The Realiser was "old stock" at the retailer, so I got a very resonable price (abot 800€, that is about 1100$, cheaper). That money I can invest into a new av reciever. In Germany there is a saying, - if you buy cheap, you buy twice. By the way, I think analog outputs are necessary to make the PRIRs.


I see. That is a great price!

 

You don't need analog outputs from your AV receiver to do a PRIR. Unfortunately you need multi-channel analog inputs(amplifier inputs) to do a PRIR if you have a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker system set up. Most AV receivers do not have that. And when they do, usually those inputs go straight to the amplifiers and bypass any processing or room corrections since that is all done in the digital domain.

 

I think it's a big problem with the Realiser not being able to output the frequency sweeps via the HDMI outputs. For most modern home theater setups, there's no way to do a PRIR and include any room EQ and corrections in the PRIR. Even if the system has analog multi-channel analog inputs AND can apply room corrections, you are still dealing with the receiver having to do an analog to digital conversion on all 8 channels which can certainly degrade the quality of the test signals which in turn makes the PRIR less accurate.

 

For example, if you look at Yamaha's flagship AV receiver, the RX-A3010, even though it does have multi-channel analog inputs, according the the manual:

"When "MULTI CH" is selected as the input source, surround mode selection and tone control adjustment are not available."

This is understandable since the receiver's multi channel analog inputs is not likely to have A/D converters on all the inputs.

 

So if you had any EQ or room/speaker corrections , those settings would not be applied to the Realiser output signals. So there is NO way to get a PRIR that matches a surround speaker setup exactly.

 

If you were not using any EQ or corrections in your home theater setup, then the PRIR would be fairly accurate.

 

I have talked to Lorr about this and he has no solution.

post #2033 of 2703

Am I right, you can only do a PRIR with a reciever with 7.1 or 5.1 inputs? So I would have to get e.g. an Onkyo 709 to do a PRIR at home. 


Edited by mirohh - 10/7/12 at 2:23pm
post #2034 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirohh View Post

Am I right, you can only do a PRIR with a reciever with 7.1 or 5.1 inputs? So I would have to get e.g. an Onkyo 709 to do the PRIR at home? So goodby to my fairly new Denon 2312!


Well, you could "create" a 7.1 or 5.1 PRIR using only two of your speakers and your Denon 2312. Obviously this would not match the sound using all 7 or 8 speakers, if you have them in your home theater system.

 

But, if you want to measure 5 or 7 actual speakers in the room, then, yes, you would need 7.1 or 5.1 analog inputs on your AV receiver.

 

There is another workaround...

 

You can use your Denon receiver and do this:

 

Connect Ch 1 and 2 outputs of the Realiser to an analog stereo input of your Denon

Then do a PRIR measurement like I outlined in this post.

 

But rather than moving your listening position or facing the back of the room, you re-wire the speaker connections for each pair of channels.

 

  1. So you do the L and R measurement first.
  2. Then you connect the Ls and Rs SPEAKERS to the L and R speaker outputs on the Denon. Then you connect the Realiser CH 4 and 5 output to the same stereo input of your Denon.
  3. So now you are feeding the Realiser Ls and Rs test signals to the Ls and Rs SPEAKERS.
  4. Then do the Ls and Rs measurement.
  5. Then do the same switch to wire the Lb and Rb speakers to the L and R speaker outputs from your Denon. Then you connect the Realiser CH 6 and 7 output to the same stereo input of your Denon.
  6. Then do the Lb and Rb measurement. Be sure to set the "save at end" to YES.

 

Now you have effectively measured all your speakers using your Denon.

 

I know this might be really confusing, but it will work.

 

Let me know if you need more detailed instructions and I can PM you.

 

-Darin

post #2035 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirohh View Post

By the way, in Germany the recomended studio to  make the pirs cost 950€, that is about 1300$.

 

I'm just guessing that in Germany you can probably find dozens of adequate quality studios for cheap (<100€/h). Just practise doing the PRIR's first and you can go anywhere you want by yourself.

 

Yes you can have 100000€+ worth of acoustics and speakers, but does that really mean the "cheaper" or less known studios build with love are any worse in reality?

 

This thursday I've scheduled one 70€ hour at a local studio. It's a well known A/V production house with a Klein+Hummel 7.1 setup. I'm sure it can't be that bad..

post #2036 of 2703

Managed to make a nice PRIR from the K+H setup. The owner was so great I didn't even have to pay. biggrin.gif

 

Haven't heard many high end speaker setups, but wow it's just a treat to listen on LCD-3's (especially with the skull vibrating subbass). And the directionality is fantastic, especially when I upmix my 5.1 stuff to 7.1. Now I'm itching to find something else to make PRIR's from..

 

I wonder why my first two tries resulted in all R/L channels being swapped. Third was one a charm. edit: Ahem. I guess it's always possible that I had my mics reversed..


Edited by hekeli - 10/11/12 at 5:28am
post #2037 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by hekeli View Post

Managed to make a nice PRIR from the K+H setup. The owner was so great I didn't even have to pay. biggrin.gif

 

Haven't heard many high end speaker setups, but wow it's just a treat to listen on LCD-3's (especially with the skull vibrating subbass). And the directionality is fantastic, especially when I upmix my 5.1 stuff to 7.1. Now I'm itching to find something else to make PRIR's from..

 

I wonder why my first two tries resulted in all R/L channels being swapped. Third was one a charm. edit: Ahem. I guess it's always possible that I had my mics reversed..

 

BTW, did you ever get your "ONE" speaker measurement to work? I haven't. Also wondering if Smyth Research responded to your question about that mode.

post #2038 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by hekeli View Post

Managed to make a nice PRIR from the K+H setup. The owner was so great I didn't even have to pay. biggrin.gif

 

Haven't heard many high end speaker setups, but wow it's just a treat to listen on LCD-3's (especially with the skull vibrating subbass). And the directionality is fantastic, especially when I upmix my 5.1 stuff to 7.1. Now I'm itching to find something else to make PRIR's from..

 

I wonder why my first two tries resulted in all R/L channels being swapped. Third was one a charm. edit: Ahem. I guess it's always possible that I had my mics reversed..


Any chance you want to share your PRIR? Head here to get access to ours and share yours: http://www.head-fi.org/t/610920/smyth-svs-realiser-prir-exchange-thread

post #2039 of 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by YCH View Post

BTW, did you ever get your "ONE" speaker measurement to work? I haven't. Also wondering if Smyth Research responded to your question about that mode.

 

Nope, haven't had time to try out again yet. No response either but I only tried the info@smyth address.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post


Any chance you want to share your PRIR? Head here to get access to ours and share yours: http://www.head-fi.org/t/610920/smyth-svs-realiser-prir-exchange-thread

 

Sure. Though I didn't find any good PRIRs there when I checked, my ears could be quite different..

 

 

Also mine is not a tip-top PRIR, right speaker angle is slightly off and it just basic 3 sec 1 try. But I'll upload it and mention that.

post #2040 of 2703

I was messaging with jazzfan and he mentioned that he was surprised at how little interest there is with the Realiser not just among audiophiles, but even among headphone enthusiasts. WE get it, that;s why we own them, but why doesn't anyone else seem to be interested?

 

I don't understand it. Maybe people just don't get it. But with all the experienced people on Head-Fi, I would think a majority of the headphone enthusiasts would want one. Or maybe it's viewed as a novelty item, like Dolby Headphone or some other systems which work marginally at best. I am thinking everyone lumps the Realiser in with all the other headphone/surround processors. Or it's viewed as a binaural recording simulator.

 

Whatever the case, one would think that Smyth would market more heavily to the consumer market, but they don't. All their sales are to pro audio engineers, not consumers.

 

Another major factor is having to do the measurements. If you don't have access to any high end audio systems to measure, the box is basically useless. Yes, you can use other people's PRIR's, but for someone considering buying one, they're not going to spend the money on the hope that they will be able to use other people's PRIR's. Seems like that could be a big turn off for spending $3K.

 

I have also never seen a negative review of the Realiser or even a review that says it doesn't work that well. All the reviews rave about it and say it really works.

 

I have been doing a lot of PRIR's at various locations and so far I have only had ONE person show any interest in doing a PRIR for them. I did one for him and hew was very impressed. (I did do one PRIR session where everyone did a PRIR, but that was set up as a demo with Lorr, so all of the people who came, came specifically for the Realiser demo.) Other than that, everyone who has watched me do a PRIR has not shown any interest in doing one for themselves to demo when I am right there with everything hooked up an ready to go!

 

The most common reaction is, "Oh I don't like headphones, so I am not interested." What?! That's the WHOLE point! If you like listening to speakers instead of headphones, this is for you. Even when I tell them that at the push of a button they can A/B/C/D compare completely different systems AND rooms, they don't seem interested.

 

Oh well, at least we know what they're missing!

 

-Darin

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