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post #1966 of 2618
Wow, probably the longest post I've ever seen on HF wink.gif. I did not read myself but am sure some with connectivity issues will much appreciate your efforts!
post #1967 of 2618
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaud View Post

Wow, probably the longest post I've ever seen on HF wink.gif. I did not read myself but am sure some with connectivity issues will much appreciate your efforts!

 

Well, today I took my 867 down to Yamaha's regional service agent in Buena Park, CA, to demonstrate the failure of "HDMI pass-through" and to leave it for [hopeful] repair.  They of course will support any product to the extent that Yamaha supports it, but if what I've uncovered is a true design defect well that's another story.  I may need to buy another manufacturer's AVR and give up on Yamaha to feed HDMI to the Realiser (assuming I can learn of another manufacturer's AVR brand/model that actually has a true working "HDMI pass-through").

 

The demonstration today consisted of setting up two Yamaha AVR's, with AVR1 fed from a BluRay player (putting out multi-channel) via HDMI.  AVR1 also had "HDMI pass-through" enabled, so that its HDMI output should have mirrored its HDMI input.  Then, the HDMI output of AVR1 was connected to HDMI input of AVR2.  Both AVR's were set at "straight", so that the displays of both showed exactly what they were receiving from their upstream feed.  In other words the display of AVR1 showed what the BluRay player was feeding it via HDMI, and the display of AVR2 showed what AVR1 was putting out via "HDMI pass-through" and feeding as input to AVR2.

 

Ok. We tried various permutations of five different Yamaha AVR models: 573, 863, 867, 871, and A800.  Here are the results:

 

  • (1) multi-channel into 867 feeds 871 -> 2-channel L/R input seen by the 871 (implying 867 has "defective" HDMI pass-through)

 

  • (2) 871 feeds 867 -> 2-channel L/R input seen by the 867 (implying 871 ALSO IS DEFECTIVE!!)

 

  • (3) 867 feeds RX-A800 -> 2-channel L/R input seen by A800 (already established that 867 is DEFECTIVE)

 

  • (4) A800 feeds 867 -> 2-channel L/R input seen by 867 (implying A800 ALSO IS DEFECTIVE)

 

  • (5) RX-V573 feeds 867 -> multi-channel seen by 867 (implying HDMI pass-through of 573 IS WORKING PROPERLY)

 

  • (6) my RX-V863 feeds Realiser -> multi-channel seen by Realiser (implying HDMI pass-through of 863 is WORKING PROPERLY)

 

In other words, it would appear that some type of design change occurred with the 867, and is apparently present in that and subsequent/newer models, which has "broken" HDMI pass-through.

In contrast, both 863 and 573 models have PROPERLY WORKING HDMI pass-through.

 

 

So, I repeat my plea for help and information.  This is the Realiser thread, and there have to be people who are using HDMI to feed the Realiser.  I'm asking you to please provide the details of your setup.

 

Are you using a BluRay player that has one or two HDMI outputs?

 

If only one, presumably that single HDMI output is feeding either (a) an AVR, whose HDMI output then feeds the Realiser, or (b) the Realiser's HDMI input, with the Realiser's HDMI output then feeding the HDTV.  Which is it?

 

If you have a BluRay player with two HDMI outputs, how do you have them connected?  How is each output configured?  To an HDTV?  To an AVR?  Directly to the Realiser via HDMI (with analog inputs to the Realiser coming from preamp output of an AVR for your other sources)?  Brand and model of player, please.

 

If you're using an AVR to feed HDMI to the Realiser, what brand/model are you using, and does it have one or two HDMI outputs?  How do you have "HDMI pass-through" set on the one or two HDMI outputs of the AVR?

 

If you are using an "HDMI port multiplier" (e.g. that Monoprice 4x2 Matrix Switch) to multiply a single HDMI output from an AVR to two simultaneous/parallel HDMI outputs (one going to your HDTV and the other going to the Realiser), how have you solved the 2-channel stereo problem (where the HDMI-visible HDTV tells the BluRay player source device it can only accept 2-channel stereo)?  Do you have a Rube Goldberg way of ensuring multi-channel output from the BluRay player, even with the HDTV connected to the HDMI network?

 

Again... there absolutely MUST be people successfully using an HDMI Realiser, fed via HDMI.  Surely that's true.  Please divulge your setup details, in detail please.

 

 

Thanks.


Edited by dsperber - 9/1/12 at 1:17am
post #1968 of 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsperber View Post
If you're using an AVR to feed HDMI to the Realiser, what brand/model are you using, and does it have one or two HDMI outputs?  How do you have "HDMI pass-through" set on the one or two HDMI outputs of the AVR?

 

If you are using an "HDMI port multiplier" (e.g. that Monoprice 4x2 Matrix Switch) to multiply a single HDMI output from an AVR to two simultaneous/parallel HDMI outputs (one going to your HDTV and the other going to the Realiser), how have you solved the 2-channel stereo problem (where the HDMI-visible HDTV tells the BluRay player source device it can only accept 2-channel stereo)?  Do you have a Rube Goldberg way of ensuring multi-channel output from the BluRay player, even with the HDTV connected to the HDMI network?

 

Again... there absolutely MUST be people successfully using an HDMI Realiser, fed via HDMI.  Surely that's true.  Please divulge your setup details, in detail please.

 

Thanks.

Here's the two different ways I have my Realiser working with HDMI input:

 

  1. Samsung BD-E6500 Blu-Ray player (only 1 HDMI output) --> Realiser HDMI input --> Realiser HDMI output/pass through --> Coby HDTV HDMI input
    With this setup, I always get multi-channel PCM audio to the Realiser via its HDMI input. AFAIK the Coby only accepts 2 channel audio, but I really have no idea what it accepts. It was a free give away when I bought my main 60" Sharp LCD TV.
     
  2. Samsung BD-E6500 Blu-Ray player (only 1 HDMI output) --> Monoprice 4x2 HDMI switch --> Reasliser HDMI input
                                                                                                                            --> Sharp 60" LCD TV
    With this setup, I always get multi-channel PCM audio to the Realiser via its HDMI input.

 

So far I have not had to try to "reset" my Realiser from asking for 2 channel back to asking for multi-channel PCM. (Other than the time I was at a different location doing a PRIR. (knock on wood)

post #1969 of 2618

Hello.

 

I can see that some of you have hdmi handshake issues between tv/projector and realiser. I had the same problem between my macbook pro -realiser- projector, but I found a solution called dr. hdmi

http://www.hdfury.com/gallery/dr-hdmi-gallery/     which solves all handshake issues. You connect it after your source/realiser and the source will allways believe that it should send multichannel audio- with whatever display you would like to use. It is really easy to set up and it works great.

Hope this helps :)


Edited by sOund ArouNd - 9/1/12 at 3:17am
post #1970 of 2618

I urge all Realizer owners to test it with this blu-ray title. Not the greatest movie ever, but the sound effects are spectacular to say the least. Highly recommended. I haven't tested it on my Realizer yet, but on my 7.1 Home Theatre system, it was quite a ride.

 

 

post #1971 of 2618
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinf View Post

Here's the two different ways I have my Realiser working with HDMI input:

 

  1. Samsung BD-E6500 Blu-Ray player (only 1 HDMI output) --> Realiser HDMI input --> Realiser HDMI output/pass through --> Coby HDTV HDMI input
    With this setup, I always get multi-channel PCM audio to the Realiser via its HDMI input. AFAIK the Coby only accepts 2 channel audio, but I really have no idea what it accepts. It was a free give away when I bought my main 60" Sharp LCD TV.
     
  2. Samsung BD-E6500 Blu-Ray player (only 1 HDMI output) --> Monoprice 4x2 HDMI switch --> Reasliser HDMI input
                                                                                                                            --> Sharp 60" LCD TV
    With this setup, I always get multi-channel PCM audio to the Realiser via its HDMI input.

 

So far I have not had to try to "reset" my Realiser from asking for 2 channel back to asking for multi-channel PCM. (Other than the time I was at a different location doing a PRIR. (knock on wood)

 

Using that Monoprice 4x2 multiplier with my (1-HDMI output) Yamaha 863 causes 2-channel HDMI from my BDP-83 player when the HDTV is plugged into the multiplier and initial HDMI handshaking occurs at power-on of the 4x2 multiplier. But if I leave the multiplier powered on (i.e. do not turn it off) after having established multi-channel to the BDP-83 (by temporarily unplugging the HDTV's HDMI cable) then it will remain that way, even when the HDTV then gets "hot connected" and devices (including the HDTV) are powered off and on independently.  So this motivates me to leave the 4x2 switch always powered on.

 

However, now that I've discovered all recent Yamaha AVR's seem to have a failing HDMI pass-through, I believe the "right" solution for me would have to be a dual-HDMI-output BluRay player like the Oppo BDP-93.  One HDMI output will simply go directly to the Realiser's HDMI input, with (a) no need to relay HDMI audio through any AVR and on to the Realiser, and (b) no alternate approach need to relay HDMI video through the Realiser and on to an HDTV.  One HDMI cable direct from source device to Realiser, to deliver decoded LPCM HDMI audio as required.  Period.

 

The second HDMI output of the BDP-93 can go to the AVR (either 863 which I prefer in this particular setup, or 867 which will also work fine in this particular setup) for passing HDMI video through the AVR and on to the HDTV.  That AVR would have its "HDMI pass-through" option DISABLED, thus making either 863 or 867 usable in this arrangement.  That way I can feed video from all of my HDMI source components through the AVR and on to the HDTV, and the AVR can also be used for decoding and feeding discrete multi-channel analog from its preamp outputs to the analog inputs of the Realiser (which is required for other source components which cannot provide decoded LPCM over HDMI).

 

Much as I'd thought the Monoprice 4x2 switch was going to be my last hardware purchase and would solve my problem, the related HDMI-audio handshake issues (and "trickery" to overcome them) when the HDTV cable is plugged in actually are a bit of a pain.  And I really do want to be able to power it off when I want to, without being forced to go through the whole special power-on process to re-establish multi-channel from my current BDP-83.

 

I now believe that the dual-HDMI-out BDP-93 (or similar) is really the only true and proper 100% problem-free and convenient solution for getting decoded LPCM over HDMI directly into the Realiser, from the seemingly one-and-only source component capable of actually producing decoded LPCM over HDMI.

post #1972 of 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaud View Post

Would need to look a bit earlier in this thread, but I recall the processing is done at 48kHz/24 bits (every input gets resampled / decimated). Probably one reason is that original intended use was movie soundtrack editing. Also, the PRIRs and other HPEQ do not likely need any more than 12 bits and 20kHz bandwidth to get resolved so it becomes a moot point (and a headache in terms of DSP processing power needs actually) to perform the filtering at any higher rate.

So, any difference you notice might be due to the better source material (a good high res mix typically also sounds wonderful when decimated to redbook format) or that decimated from 96 to 48kHz sounds cleaner than resampling from 44.1 to 48kHz...

With more Bluray titles utilizing 24/96 soundtracks, I wonder whether there will be an update to the Realizer making it capable of doing its magic at that resolution without having to down sample anything.
post #1973 of 2618

I have the Smyth A8 and I am using it. The user manual is not the easiest to use if you are having problems with the set up, but persistence pays off. I am using the A8 with a Sherwood R-972 with Trinnov, and I can say that the Trinnov does appear to work when applied as a pre-processing step to the pre-outs before processing by the Smyth Realiser.

 

And I can't say enough good things about Lorr Kramer, who handles technical support for Smyth in the US. He is one of the most knowledgeable audio professionals that I have ever dealt with in my 30 years as an audio hobbyist.


Edited by xjr15 - 9/1/12 at 8:42pm
post #1974 of 2618
Thread Starter 

Interesting discovery today.

 

Last weekend's failure of my HDMI Realiser to "pass through" video from its HDMI Output port to my HDTV has been localized to be caused by some HDMI incompatibility between my source Oppo BDP-83 player and the Realiser.  Note that the BDP-83 was the very first model produced by Oppo, which I acquired over 3 years ago at the same time as I acquired my #0001 Realiser and Yamaha 863 AVR.

 

(1) Simple HDMI connection from HDMI output of BDP-83 to HDMI input of the Realiser (no AVR involved at all) and then HDMI output of the Realiser to HDMI input of three different HDTVs: no video on any of the three HDTV's.  Try two different Realisers, and same failing results.

 

(2) Substitute a second inexpensive (but newer) Samsung BluRay player for the Oppo BDP-83, and video is now successfully received on all three HDTV's, and with both Realisers.

 

 

===> There is nothing wrong with the HDMI output of the Realiser, in terms of feeding digital video to a downstream HDTV.

 

===> There is something wrong with the BDP-83 connection to the Realiser's HDMI input, perhaps a failure of HDCP authorization that is causing the BDP-83 to shut off HDMI digital video, perhaps dropping down to component video output only?  And yet multi-channel digital audio is actually arriving at the Realiser, but apparently no digital video.  Very strange, but an actual fact.

 

 

Interesting observation on the other Yamaha "HDMI pass-through" failure problem (i.e. "incomplete" stripped L/R are the only two channels from full mulit-channel HDMI input which get passed on through to HDMI output) on the Yamaha 867 and 871 and A800, whereas it works properly with my 863 and also the 573:

 

  • (a) all units which FAIL are dual-HDMI-out models,

 

  • (b) whereas all units which WORK are single-HDMI-out models.

 

I would say this is the "smoking gun", or "giant clue".  It seems highly likely and possible that in the design changes that supported two independent HDMI outputs there was also something that unintentionally "broke" the HDMI pass-through mechanism.

 

 

NOTE: Yesterday I placed an order with Oppo for a "refurbished" dual-HDMI-out BDP-93, to replace my single-HDMI-out BDP-83.  This will be my "true solution", with HDMI LPCM audio output going directly to the HDMI input of the Realiser, bypassing any Yamaha AVR.  The second HDMI output of the BDP-93 will go to the 863 AVR (which I will keep in place at this primary viewing/listening location supported by an HDMI-Realiser, since (a) its single HDMI output is no longer a problem and (b) I prefer its analog connectivity over that of the 867) for video only (thus the 863 will have "HDMI pass-through" disabled) and the 863 will feed video to my HDTV from the BDP-93 as well as my other HDMI sources (which also require audio decoding by the 863).

 

I expect the Yamaha service center to be unable to "repair" my 867, as the problem with failing HDMI pass-through is a Yamaha engineering design defect, not a failing HDMI hardware component in my 867.  I will simply accept it back and use it at my second analog-only Realiser location where HDMI pass-through is not a requirement.  I do hope to receive phone calls from Yamaha support about my still-open ticket (which I called in again about today, to add to the record the remarkable results we discovered yesterday regarding the identical failure from other dual-HDMI-out receiver models), and have also volunteered to the service center to speak to any Yamaha engineer who wants to talk to me as well as driving down again to Buena Park (even bringing my own 863 if they request it) if someone from Yamaha wants to meet with me for a demo of the failure.

 

I will remove the Monoprice 4x2 Matrix Switch I've used for a week from the arrangement, as it is no longer needed.


Edited by dsperber - 9/2/12 at 3:03pm
post #1975 of 2618

I put the blame on Oppo.  I have the BDP-83SE and have had a lot of problems with 7.1 DTS HDMA causing clipping problems.  Oppo never fixed the problem,and their "solution" was the BDP-95.  So needless to say I'm not going to consider any Oppo products in the future.

 

-Ed

post #1976 of 2618
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwood View Post

I put the blame on Oppo.  I have the BDP-83SE and have had a lot of problems with 7.1 DTS HDMA causing clipping problems.  Oppo never fixed the problem,and their "solution" was the BDP-95.  So needless to say I'm not going to consider any Oppo products in the future.

 

-Ed

 

Interesting.

 

I don't have a need for an "audiophile-friendly" BDP-95, at least not at my primary now-HDMI Realiser location.  I just need the dual-HDMI-out of the BDP-93 and the ability to produce decoded LPCM for the HDMI Realiser.  So the $415 price for a "refurb" from Oppo itself was perfect for my needs.  Amazingly, they're out-of-stock on "new", which might explain why prices on eBay and Amazon Marketplace are ABOVE the $499 RETAIL PRICE!.  Again, I plan to move my current BDP-83 into a second HDTV-only location since that room needs a BluRay player anyway.

 

On the other hand, my now second analog-only Realiser location (now fed via analog input from my PC to what will be a Yamaha 867's preamp outputs when it gets returned, for both HDTV and BluRay movies) actually has a high-end audio setup as part of the arrangement.  And I have an old 1995-vintage Marantz CD-11 Mk2 which is currently in need of mechanical repair (the CD tray eject/insert mechanism is not working properly from the OPEN/CLOSE motor and needs my "manual assist").  But I love it, and it has XLR outputs to feed my preamp/amp, and it sounds good.

 

There is a well known repair place named Soundsmith in Peekskill, NY who I have been going to for repair of my high-end audio equipment for probably 20 years now.  Amazingly, they're still in business and amazingly they're still able to FIX ANYTHING, regardless of whether it's currently made or not.  So I'd already made plans and contacted them to repair my Marantz CD player. But between shipping and repair cost, I figure it's got to cost perhaps $300 or more.  And when I got it back, I'd still have 1995-era DACs at work (although they've been perfectly fine for my listening needs for the past nearly 20 years).

 

So, I toyed with the idea of NOT repairing my Marantz player, but rather buying a BDP-95 (which has SABRE DAC's and also has XLR outputs).  Yes, it's $1000 and not $300, but it's also a modern universal player (including support for FLAC).  However I really only need a CD player in that Threshold T2/T200-based audio-only rack (which also now hosts my old Stax SRM-T1S/SR-Omega setup, and a connection from the headphone outputs of my analog Realiser) with Thiel CS3.6 speakers, but with no HDTV or other video need... so why would I buy an expensive video-also player when I really don't need it?

 

I suspect I'll just repair the Marantz player, and not invest in a BDP-95 for that location... at least not at the moment.

post #1977 of 2618

imo there is no getting around the fact that using the XLR outputs for 2ch stereo with HQ Flac or comparable, direct from the XLR outputs of the BDP-95 to a balanced Stax amp or other HQ amp for the SR-009 stax headphones. imo this is the best way to go. 

 

I am thinking about getting a Panasonic Blu Ray player with dual HDMI ports for most of my use with the Realiser (movies or MC audio) and keep the BDP-95 for the above use. I use the video only HDMI port 1 of the BDP-95 run directly to my 65VT50 and the secondary HDMI port 2 run directly to my Realiser. By doing it this way I have no HDMI issues and am not bypassing anything. 

 

I am not saying that the Realiser does a bad job with 2ch stereo, it imo does a very nice job. All I am saying is if you want the best of the best using high end headphones, amp and source, then the above is the way to go. 

 

ss

post #1978 of 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

imo there is no getting around the fact that using the XLR outputs for 2ch stereo with HQ Flac or comparable, direct from the XLR outputs of the BDP-95 to a balanced Stax amp or other HQ amp for the SR-009 stax headphones. imo this is the best way to go. 

 

I am thinking about getting a Panasonic Blu Ray player with dual HDMI ports for most of my use with the Realiser (movies or MC audio) and keep the BDP-95 for the above use. I use the video only HDMI port 1 of the BDP-95 run directly to my 65VT50 and the secondary HDMI port 2 run directly to my Realiser. By doing it this way I have no HDMI issues and am not bypassing anything. 

 

I am not saying that the Realiser does a bad job with 2ch stereo, it imo does a very nice job. All I am saying is if you want the best of the best using high end headphones, amp and source, then the above is the way to go. 

 

ss

Sure you will get a better sound, but I can't listen to two channel music without the Realiser. I never liked the in your head sound from headphones.

 

Watch out for the Panasonic BluRay players if you plan on playing any media from USB hard drives. I had the Panasonic 320 player and Panasonic confirmed that when watching video from a USB hard drive there is no way to resume or skip to a specific time in the file. So if you stop watching a movie at say 90 minutes into a movie and you want to finish watching the movie later, you will have to start it at the beginning and wait 90 minutes until you can watch from where you left off. Even the fast forward feature will abort before you get to 90 minutes and you have to start all over again. I am not sure if this is the case for streaming media, but I believe it works the same way. A total deal breaker for me since I have most of my movies are ripped to MKV files.

post #1979 of 2618

Being an Oppo 95 owner and a Realizer owner, I totally agree with SillySally's approach. There is no better way than a high end dual HDMI out bluray player which gives the best picture quality (no need to go through receiver) and works well with the Realizer. I wish I could utilize the room acoustics setup from my Pionner SC-LX85 receiver, but it never seemed to work with the Realizer.


Edited by googleli - 9/4/12 at 2:27am
post #1980 of 2618
Thread Starter 

Since I'm using an Audio-GD NFB9 external DAC (with WM8741 chips), and since the XLR output of the DAC is going to the XLR input of my Stax SRM-007tII/SR-009, I've rationalized that the BDP-93 (to replace my current BDP-83) is "acceptable".  I honestly doubt that I would hear any difference from the DAC in the BDP-95 (if its XLR outputs were to feed my Stax), and the results using my Audio-GD NFB9 (and its XLR outputs feeding my Stax).

 

For pure 2-channel CD audio I select DAC input through a digital coax direct from the BDP83/93 to the coax input on the DAC (bypassing both AVR and Realiser), letting the external DAC do the 2-channel PCM stereo decoding and feeding XLR direct to the Stax. The BDP-83/93 is thus simply being used as a CD transport, delivering 2-channel PCM to the DAC.

 

Multi-channel source goes through the Yamaha AVR to the Realiser via analog for non-BluRay source audio (then decoded by the AVR and delivered via analog preamp output to the Realiser).  Multi-channel discrete LPCM from the soon-to-arrive BDP-93 will come from its audio HDMI output direct to the HDMI input of the Realiser.  Then, for either input, it's optical out from the Realiser to the optical input on the DAC, and again out via XLR to the Stax.

 

 

Incidentally, regarding my other Marantz CD-II Mk2 player (which is need of tray motor repair) at my audio location, even with its 1995 vintage it too has XLR outputs which I feed to my now relocated old Stax SRM-T1S/SR-Omega, via the XLR input/output of my Threshold T2 preamp.  But I suspect the 1995-vintage DAC's in the Marantz could be significantly improved upon with a modern BDP-95 or external DAC.  Still, I think I'll just repair the Marantz for now.

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